Chile 2017 Presidential Election

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby admin » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:34 pm

there is a rather large cultural elephant in the room, that many Chileans don't like to talk about; let alone admit exists.

There is a rather large group, that for the most part express their views along the line as "I will never vote for the right, because of the dictatorship".

Fine. Every country has that. There are large numbers of republicans on the right in the states, that will never vote for a democrat. Same with the democrats.

Call them the traditionally politically entrenched.

Inside that group on the left however there is a very large, vocal, and politically active group, that takes it much further. Many are made up of the exhiles durring the disctorship, kids that returned, those that were arrested, those that just drank the marxist kool-aid, or whatever. We could generally call them the extremely disgruntled left.

Not only will they not support the right, regardless if it is in their best interest or not, just out of historical principle; they actively hate and resent Chile and what it has become. They actively, at any turn, out of some twisted sense of moral justice, will undermining the country. Perhaps the most common ones, is just some sort of passive aggressive attack over petty things. For example, the worker that steals some products on the sly from their employer, or the guy breaking in to a house and taking a TV, but will justify it as 'striking out for justice'. They will take that 'screw them, they are bunch of rich F*(&K that supported the dictatorship, and are still trying to keep us down' attitude.

On an higher level, further up the political food chain, you have what I believe is large group of politicians and bureaucrats on the far left, including Bachelet and many of her appointees, that are also actively take that attitude; or, at least take advantage of it. They are hell-bent on destroying or damaging anything they see as "the pinochet neo-liberal" model (a.k.a. modern economics, even if if has not vague relation to what pinochet implemented); never mind the fact that the center-left spent the last 35+ years building it in to what it is today, and profiting from it all along the way. They get the political juice from the seething masses on the far left, any time they can appear to be damaging it.

It is that group that sees any market based progress made by Chile, as some sort of extension of the dictatorship. For them, the dictatorship never ended, and they will never allow it to end. Their whole personal and professional identity is built around it. So, stripping the country clean, breaking the capitalist economic model it is operating on, is not only morally justified but some sort of twisted duty. At the very least is revenge for what happened to them, even if nothing really happened to them (e.g. they did not get rich, or their families were exiled, or their grandfather was jailed and beaten).

All very terrible, but they are punishing the wrong people, in the wrong way.

People that have been here a while, have had the opportunity to have deeper conversations with close friends and family in Chile, will know what I am talking about. The above explanation probably does not even begin to do it justice, or flesh out all the nooks and crannies. I might also quickly mention, there is an extreme right in Chile, that sees that extreme left, as public enemy number one and worthy of crushing (and many seem to stop short of spitting out the words like 'eradicating'). They see that far left group, as the number one cause for Chile still being a developing country.
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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby Space Cat » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:02 pm

admin wrote:They are hell-bent on destroying or damaging anything they see as "the pinochet neo-liberal" model (a.k.a. modern economics, even if if has not vague relation to what pinochet implemented); never mind the fact that the center-left spent the last 35+ years building it in to what it is today, and profiting from it all along the way.

I see lots of this blind hate in 20-something Chilean Internet circles. They keep dropping in "neo-liberal" as a reply to everything that they don't like, making it a meaningless negative word like "socialism" in the US or "fascism" in Russia.

Then this meme-based world view combines with the ticket price to other parts of the world, so they are picturing some Developed Countries Valhalla while being adamant than Chile is the shittiest country ever.

So they live hating their country (and often "the copycat culture", one more dumb meme) and focusing on some identity politics instead of seeing all the amazing opportunities Chile has. It's so annoying, ugggh.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby admin » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:03 pm

well, the true colors of Bachelet have been coming out pretty strong in the last year, and especially the last week or two; now, that she is not going to need to be relected.

We got the "chavez of mexico" just visited Bachelet at the Moneda today:
https://www.df.cl/noticias/internaciona ... 71915.html

Pinera called her out yesterday for not condemning the vote Venezuela, while just about every other democracy in the World did, but instead telling everyone they should sit down and talk about it. Really?

on and on.

All that and the Christian democrat party is imploding internally under it's own BS in a rather spectacular fashion.
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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby Space Cat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:44 am

Speaking of confused leftists, here's the letter from CONFECh (Chilean student confederation) that supports Venezuelan constitution assembly and compares Maduro to Allende:
http://www.eldinamo.cl/nacional/2017/07 ... -criticas/

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby frozen-north » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:02 am

Space Cat wrote:
Then this meme-based world view combines with the ticket price to other parts of the world, so they are picturing some Developed Countries Valhalla while being adamant than Chile is the shittiest country ever.

So they live hating their country (and often "the copycat culture", one more dumb meme) and focusing on some identity politics instead of seeing all the amazing opportunities Chile has. It's so annoying, ugggh.



Why wouldn't they believe the picture of the 'Developed Countries Valhalla' when it is repeated so often? It has been said for decades. Even the article by the Chilean economist that you posted a link to went along the same lines. That article talked about the success of the 'Asian Tigers', but excluded all those that had not been successful -and never defined what was the 'technology lag' he was referring to. Somehow the Chilean media loves repeating those stories, even when it is clearly nonsense what is being said. Something similar happens sometimes here in Canada. Every once in a while there are comparisons made to the US or to some northern European country.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby Space Cat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:43 am

frozen-north wrote:never defined what was the 'technology lag' he was referring to

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/fin/ - economic complexity 9/184, $64bln in exports, diversified exports, 5.5mln population
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/chl/ - economic complexity 77/184, $66bln in exports, mineral and food exports, 17.9mln population

Finland's climate is harsh and their land has not so much natural resources. The country is located far from trade routes, was occupied through history, did not have colonies.

I've been to Finland many times and well aware of their problems but just look at that productivity and diversified economy, not to mention the amazing education.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby frozen-north » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:51 am

Space Cat wrote:
I've been to Finland many times:

.... just look at that productivity and diversified economy, not to mention the amazing education.



What does Finland have to do with the 'Asian Tigers'? And where does it talk about 'technology lag' ? It has no relation to my comment of the article.

That article .... never defined what was the 'technology lag' he was referring to.


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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby Space Cat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:08 am

I don't get your point. The tech lag exists, I provided the data above. One-page article in some magazine is just one of many. Asian countries are not that relevant because of completely different society, economy, and population sizes.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby frozen-north » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:53 am

Space Cat wrote:
I don't get your point. The tech lag exists, I provided the data above. One-page article in some magazine is just one of many. Asian countries are not that relevant because of completely different society, economy, and population sizes.


My apologies if I am not quite clear. Let me try one more time.

My reply was about your comment, and there are two parts to reply to. The first was a reply to your comment "they are picturing some Developed Countries Valhalla while being adamant than Chile is the shittiest country ever." I said that it has been something that has been repeated for decades. The second part was regarding the two articles I read by the Chilean economist.

When you replied you posted a comparison to Finland, something that is similar to what those articles, and others, were doing. You were comparing Chile to a 'more developed country with a more complex economy'. And this is the sort of thing that the Chilean media loves to repeat. And my point was that it would be understandable that many people might end believing something that keeps on being repeated - *Those countries are better, I am moving there*.

My criticism of the article is because the guy is an economist, and there are too many incompetent economists. If he is going to be going around writing about Chile's 'technological lag', he would have to define what he is talking about. Us trying to guess what he might have wanted to say is not what I wanted to do.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby Space Cat » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:54 pm

frozen-north wrote: My reply was about your comment, and there are two parts to reply to. The first was a reply to your comment "they are picturing some Developed Countries Valhalla while being adamant than Chile is the shittiest country ever." I said that it has been something that has been repeated for decades. The second part was regarding the two articles I read by the Chilean economist.

When you replied you posted a comparison to Finland, something that is similar to what those articles, and others, were doing. You were comparing Chile to a 'more developed country with a more complex economy'. And this is the sort of thing that the Chilean media loves to repeat. And my point was that it would be understandable that many people might end believing something that keeps on being repeated - *Those countries are better, I am moving there*.

Welp, "we have an underdeveloped economy, those countries are better" and "Chile is a neoliberal shithole that can't get anything right" are quite different attitudes to have.

I think the media should repeat that the country needs a ton of improvement. It's quite healthy to be focused on "what do we lack?" Otherwise you can get something like my failing home country that is in hubris about knowing best and not willing to shut up and learn from more successful economies.

My problem is not with the media but with whining and self-destructive groups like the one that admin described. There are millions of folks who listen to the same media but instead focus on making things better.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby frozen-north » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Welp, "we have an underdeveloped economy, those countries are better" and "Chile is a neoliberal shithole that can't get anything right" are quite different attitudes to have.


Then this meme-based world view combines with the ticket price to other parts of the world, so they are picturing some Developed Countries Valhalla while being adamant than Chile is the shittiest country ever.


And the point is that they did not invent it now. As I said, it has been repeated for decades. And the two points above are exactly what the media has been repeating.

I think the media should repeat that the country needs a ton of improvement. It's quite healthy to be focused on "what do we lack?" Otherwise you can get something like my failing home country that is in hubris about knowing best and not willing to shut up and learn from more successful economies.


The devil is in the details. Even if everybody were to agree in "what do we lack?", there is still the problem on agreeing on how to get from here to there.

My problem is not with the media but with whining and self-destructive groups like the one that admin described. There are millions of folks who listen to the same media but instead focus on making things better.


There are destructive people all across the political spectrum. If it were that easy as 'folks who listen to the same media but instead focus on making things better' many countries, including yours, would be in a different situation.

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Re: Chile 2017 Presidential Election

Postby mem » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:01 pm

It is madness...all the butthurt socialists crying about the dictatorship and mindlessly supporting any flavor of the decade socialist, because their butt still hurts. It's time to move on and stop wallowing in victimhood and accepting Chile as a "developing" country like a participation ribbon in tiny tot little league.

I'm sure its pie in the sky thinking, but it would be soooo nice if a strong shameless Chilean politician would get up and act like a real boss. Hand out the spankings, and start getting things on the fast track. Stop cowtowing to whatever the US/Western World is doing and have some shrewd sense. Say to hell with the road to desolation that the US is on and focus on making Chile an independent regional powerhouse. Quit mindlessly trusting in the USD...I am so tired of hearing about how Russia and China and India are buying Gold by the ton month in and month out like there is a major crisis coming (ahem) and stockpiling it while butthurt socialist Chile just keeps crying about how much their butt hurts and they should buttress their butt with more USD and Copper will eventually save the day. I don't know how much vision Pinera really has, but anything not socialist liberal will be a step, albeit a small step perhaps, in the right (no pun intended) direction.

It may just take time, perhaps a Chilean will one day rise to power that isn't too butthurt by stuff that happened sorta close to a century go and will be able to read the writing on the wall. Unfortunately, I'm not holding my breath. The poop is going to the fan sooner than this white horse can rise to power in all likelihood


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