Let us write a constitution for Chile.

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Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by admin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:28 pm

I thought this might be a fun exercise, since the morons seem to be hell bent on opening that can of worms.

we have a lot of people, from all over the world, with lot of experience and education, let's see how easy or hard this might be.

rules of the road and format:

one article, per post, then an argument for why that article should be included. does not have to be perfect in legal wording, and the explanation or motive either. sufficient perhaps for someone to pickup the idea, and refine it.

arguments by others, for it, against, or a modified version, please quote the original proposed article in your post.

for example:

article 1: bla, bla, bla

reason: bla, bla, bla

perhaps this is a flop, and it is obviously totally hypothetical, but It might be useful as a thought experiment to see what we are even talking about when it comes to the work involved in writing a new constitution.

even a bad one.
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by nwdiver » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:22 pm

One term of 6 years in a candidates lifetime, they can run as often as they want once deceased.......it gets rid of all the career politicos and will quickly show who is serious about the work, one half elected every 3 years.....
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm

So apparently Chile has had about 8 constitutions, with many amendments along the way , especially to the current one, 1989, 1991,1994,1997,1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. But now it's all Piñeras fault and suddenly a brand new one is needed?

If we are making our own then cut and paste article 1 from the bill of rights Ammendments in the US constitution. No established religion, no prohibition of free speech or of press , peaceful assembly etc.
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by mem » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:41 pm

nwdiver wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:22 pm
One term of 6 years in a candidates lifetime, they can run as often as they want once deceased.......it gets rid of all the career politicos and will quickly show who is serious about the work, one half elected every 3 years.....
This addresses a key issue. I think 2 terms lifetime could be reasonable though. Even consecutive ala US style. Increasing the length of the term could work as well...I'd think it would provide more stability and less churn...something important for business
We just dont want the career politicians trading terms as we have seen with bachelet and pinera.

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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by mem » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:50 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm
So apparently Chile has had about 8 constitutions, with many amendments along the way , especially to the current one, 1989, 1991,1994,1997,1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. But now it's all Piñeras fault and suddenly a brand new one is needed?

If we are making our own then cut and paste article 1 from the bill of rights Ammendments in the US constitution. No established religion, no prohibition of free speech or of press , peaceful assembly etc.
A helpful excersize may be to consider how should a "new" Chilean constitution differ from the US constitution

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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:20 pm

mem wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:50 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:51 pm
So apparently Chile has had about 8 constitutions, with many amendments along the way , especially to the current one, 1989, 1991,1994,1997,1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. But now it's all Piñeras fault and suddenly a brand new one is needed?

If we are making our own then cut and paste article 1 from the bill of rights Ammendments in the US constitution. No established religion, no prohibition of free speech or of press , peaceful assembly etc.
A helpful excersize may be to consider how should a "new" Chilean constitution differ from the US constitution
Yeah got it, I gotta do some more study first on the current one here. Coming originally from a country with no constitution of course it's all a bit foreign this concept of a constitution . I'll give it some more thought .


New Zealand’s political development has been characterised more by evolution than revolution – slow change rather than sudden change, and its political system functions without a single written constitutional statement of principles and policy direction. New Zealand’s political values do not reflect a consistent, logically organised perspective on the means and ends of politics and government.

A central value for New Zealanders is ‘fairness’. ‘Fair enough’ is a common response in conversation, particularly to unwelcome news. To be ‘fair’ is to be ‘reasonable’. This value is what New Zealanders believe governments ought to do, and how they should function, in the nation’s ‘political culture’.

I Think we got along fine with out one, rather than putting all our faith in a piece of paper written at a certain point in time by a certain group, only to be added to and modified over and over time and time again.

Anyway as I said I'll give it some more thought on the "new" Chilean one.
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by Jamers41 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:42 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but rather than just establish rules and rights........isn't a constitution supposed to first define the government itself and create the structure of the State? In other words, how many branches or organs it has, who composes each one, what each part of the State can do (both to other parts and to the citizens) etc? I suppose one could argue that the first proposal seen here (limiting reelection) could be part of the definition of the legislative branch.

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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:55 pm

Jamers41 wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:42 pm
Pardon my ignorance, but rather than just establish rules and rights........isn't a constitution supposed to first define the government itself and create the structure of the State? In other words, how many branches or organs it has, who composes each one, what each part of the State can do (both to other parts and to the citizens) etc? I suppose one could argue that the first proposal seen here (limiting reelection) could be part of the definition of the legislative branch.
It appears so, just reading the US one now, a real page turner, as does the Chilean one.
Here is the the current one with 2005 modifications.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061207024 ... -texto.asp
Some more info in English on the 1925 one.
https://www.tribunalconstitucional.cl/a ... sh-version
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by admin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:47 am

The first right asserted in the u.s. constitution is 'We the PEOPLE".

essentially without those first three words, everything else that follows is b.s.; if you are actually trying to define a democracy.

It was the basis of the supreme court ruling that the u.s. goverment has no right to remove the citizenship of a u.s. citizen.

Since a bunch of people are bitching about the legitimacy of the constitution because of who wrote the Chilean constitution, something along those lines might be useful.

essentially it is a consent clause, and I am not sure there is a more compact version of that.
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by Zenth » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:56 am

Two senators to represent each state. One senator to represent the capital district and one to represent the other areas such as Antarctica and Easter Island. One representative for every 150,000 citizens. Voting districts established. These citizens vote for their individual representatives.
A census every 5-10 years to determine population.
Civilian control of the military.
An income tax OR a consumption tax.
No state religion.
Government offices throughout Chile. There should not be a need to go to Santiago for everything.
An inflation adjusted minimum wage.
Mandatory retirement contributions. Individuals just won’t save on their own.
Court system.

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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by admin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:03 am

one I have debated with my wife for years was the possibility of converting the court system in to a common law system.

I think it could be done, while leaving the bulk of existing court rulings in effect.

A lot of the beucracy of chile is centered around b.s. held over from the days of kings and rome.

for example, needing to notarize everything, for no good reason.

another example, there are still laws on the books that requires the witness to the signing of certain court documents, prove they are a land owner. like right out of the middle ages, you have to prove you are not a surf. thus, trustworthy and educated; or, as in rome, you are a citizen and not a barbarian or slave. that is where that originates from. There is also the implication that you are not a women, as women once could not own property because they were property.

how about wax seals on wills. yes, in 2019, we still have to place wax seal on a will at a notary on certain types of wills.

most judges and courts fundementally ignore them anyway in practice, acting as if they were under a common law system; but, those laws are still there.

like wise, every trial needs to reinvent the wheel, rather than building up binding case law.

almost every little b.s. case has the chance of ending up at the supreme court, for no good reason. there is a bunch of cases that have to originate in the supreme court. for example, a foreign divorce to be recognized in chile, it has to go through the supreme court. Does a divorce sound like something that a supreme court should be bothered with, and for every instance of a foreign divorce being recognized in chile?

of course, I would very much like to see real class actions and punitive damages. it is the great equalizer to give people the power to keep companies in check, in a way that will make companies take notice. a lot of the collusion scandals between companies, would definitely go away if the cost of getting caught had real consequences for the companies involved.
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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Post by 41southchile » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:16 am

admin wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:03 am


most judges and courts fundementally ignore them anyway in practice, acting as if they were under a common law system; but, those laws are still there.

Seems to be an oh so common theme for many things here, rather than fix or replace things, they just adapt while leaving the old shit still there. Cable TV and telephone lines on posts in towns springs to mind as one visable physical example of this mentality.
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