corredors and boilerplate leases

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thisisreallycomplicated
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corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 am

I'm looking around at houses to rent, and most of them are being managed by corredores. And most of their leases seem horrible to me. There's one in particular I'm looking at now, and it includes this in one of its clauses:
El retardo en la restitución del inmueble será sancionada con una multa equivalente al cincuenta por ciento de la renta vigente de arrendamiento, por cada mes que transcurra, sin perjuicio del pago que deberá efectuar la parte arrendataria por gastos de abogado, receptor, costas procesales y demás que pudieran originarse con motivo del pago de las rentas adeudadas, consumos de servicios y restitución del inmueble en el estado que el arrendatario lo recibió
---
google's translation:

The delay in the restitution of the property will be sanctioned with a fine equivalent to fifty percent of the current lease rent, for each month that elapses, without prejudice to the payment that the lessee will have to pay for lawyer, receiver, procedural costs and other that could be originated due to the payment of the rent owed, consumption of services and restitution of the property in the state that the lessee received it
So I'm wondering what kinds of problems could that cause me? Is there a limit to the legal costs I could be liable for? Or could the owner decide to sue me for an unreasonable amount of damages, and I would have to pay his legal costs, whatever they are? Or am I just being paranoid? And one more thing: the corredor's company would also be providing the legal services that I might be required to pay for.

EDIT: I may have misinterpreted this clause, so it may not cause the problems I was concerned about. I need to get a better translation to make sure.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

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fraggle092
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:43 am

Its a cautionary clause in order to hopefully prevent renters wrecking the property, or skipping leaving big utility bills unpaid. But first the offender has to be located....not so easy if they have left town and don't want to be found.

Both those things happened to us the last time we rented a place out and it took over a month to put the damage right.

They also used that property's address to obtain goods on credit, so for a year or so afterwards we had debt collectors at the door looking for stuff to seize or repossess.

That's why those contracts are so intimidating, there are a lot of abusers out there.

A similar property on our street was briefly rented to an individual who opened it up as a prostibulo, complete with "ladies" leering out of the windows to attract passing trade, this on a main street, a block away from a school and the main police station. After a month or so, the inhabitants managed to set the place on fire, and abandoned it in the middle of the night...

Yapo.cl has a good selection of rental properties on offer by both agencies and private owners.
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thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm

I used to rent out rooms in my house, a long time ago. So I know it's not easy being a landlord. Unfortunately, these one-sided leases can scare off good tennants, since they can give too much control to bad landlords. Or at least they appear to. Anyway, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Are these clauses enforceable as written?

I've been looking on yapo, and some other sites. But some of the better houses in my neighborhood never get advertised on the internet.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

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fraggle092
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 pm

thisisreallycomplicated wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm
Are these clauses enforceable as written?
If you've agreed to them by signing a notarized contract, yes.
But first they have to find you. How are they going to do that? Its a Civil matter, so the police aren't involved. And the legal process is slow...
por otro lado, Claudio Albornoz, una de las personas involucrada junto a otros laicos de Villarrica en habilitar la vivienda para inmigrantes haitianos, explicó que Luis Cornejo -persona que firmó el contrato- abandonó la congregación a la que pertenecía y se fue al extranjero.

Lo anterior, significa que la única persona que podría hacerse responsable está inubicable y la propietaria de la vivienda desconoce la identidad de los inmigrantes que se llevaron las pertenencias de su casa.
https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... ntes.shtml

The process doesn't even work with Chilean nationals much less for an expat....it is worthwhile taking pics on moving in, paying special attention to pre-existing defects so the landlord can't later claim for those. If they want you to sign an inventory stating that you received the property in perfect condition, refuse unless those defects are listed.

Anyway, the whole legal process is such a hassle that unless the client causes severe damages, its mostly not worth pursuing, the garantia would be withheld instead.

http://www.malosarrendatarios.cl/app/vi ... hp?pu=Ymhr
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thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:25 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 pm
thisisreallycomplicated wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:57 pm
Are these clauses enforceable as written?
If you've agreed to them by signing a notarized contract, yes.
Isn't there some kind of law that requires "good faith"? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that might provide some protection from clauses that could be abused by a dishonest landlord. I understand the problems that these clauses appear to address, and I wouldn't have a problem if they were required to be used in a reasonable manner.
fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 pm
But first they have to find you. How are they going to do that? Its a Civil matter, so the police aren't involved. And the legal process is slow...
In my case, I don't think I'd be hard to find. But I understand it can be difficult, if someone doesn't want to be found.
fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 pm
....it is worthwhile taking pics on moving in, paying special attention to pre-existing defects so the landlord can't later claim for those. If they want you to sign an inventory stating that you received the property in perfect condition, refuse unless those defects are listed.
Yeah, I've seen those "perfect condtion" statements. And I'd never agree to one, without listing the exceptions.
fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:41 pm
Anyway, the whole legal process is such a hassle that unless the client causes severe damages, its mostly not worth pursuing, the garantia would be withheld instead.
I'm mainly trying to understand what _could_ happen, if I get an unreasonable landlord. Especially if I'm agreeing to pay all of his legal costs. And the corredor is benefitting by providing the legal services.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:24 pm

thisisreallycomplicated wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:25 am
El retardo en la restitución del inmueble será sancionada con una multa equivalente al cincuenta por ciento de la renta vigente de arrendamiento, por cada mes que transcurra, sin perjuicio del pago que deberá efectuar la parte arrendataria por gastos de abogado, receptor, costas procesales y demás que pudieran originarse con motivo del pago de las rentas adeudadas, consumos de servicios y restitución del inmueble en el estado que el arrendatario lo recibió
---
google's translation:

The delay in the restitution of the property will be sanctioned with a fine equivalent to fifty percent of the current lease rent, for each month that elapses, without prejudice to the payment that the lessee will have to pay for lawyer, receiver, procedural costs and other that could be originated due to the payment of the rent owed, consumption of services and restitution of the property in the state that the lessee received it
I may have misinterpreted this clause. It may not require me to pay the landlord's legal fees. It might only refer to legal fees I may be liable for, for some other reason. And hopefully the landlord would be responsible for their own legal costs, if they're unreasonable.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

ghibli
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by ghibli » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:29 pm

Bitter experience: the contracts which seem excessively harsh and biased to favor the landlord go with apartments or houses which have problems which the landlord is hoping to either: ignore, or get some sucker to fix. at a minimum, make sure that your contract specifies that the major systems of hot water, heat, plumbing are operational, AND are the responsibility, excluding damage you may cause, of the landlord. Even with this clause, you may end up with no heat etc etc. If you talk to an attorney to try to enforce the contract, he/she will tell you that your best option is to simply move. That said, yes of course there are plenty of awful tenants who trash property and don't pay utilities. I know it sounds like dog eat dog - it is! Those are the facts Max. There is NO presumption of "good faith." Too bad so sad. So take your time - push back on the terms. Don't agree to pay to re-paint etc etc. Do take photos with time stamp during the inventory process. Do test all the locks, faucets, toilets, heat, drains (!) at the time of inventory. When you move, DO get a salvo conducto and change any utilities out of your name. Good luck.

thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:37 pm

I forgot about this one:
En el evento que el arrendador tenga que recurrir a la vía judicial para obtener el cumplimiento de cualquiera de las disposiciones contenidas en el presente instrumento, como asimismo, para el logro de la restitución del inmueble al término del contrato, el arrendatario se compromete y obliga a pagar a su costo los gastos judiciales y honorarios profesionales que origina dicha acción a la parte arrendadora.

---
google translation:

In the event that the landlord has to resort to judicial means to obtain compliance with any of the provisions contained in this instrument, as well as for the achievement of the restitution of the property at the end of the contract, the lessee undertakes and obligates to pay at their own expense the legal expenses and professional fees that originate said action from the lessor.
So I'm almost right back to where I started. This one at least seems to say "if the landlord __has to__ resort to judicial means" as opposed to just "if the landlord __decides to__ resort to judicial means". And if the landlord is wrong, there would be nothing to "obtain compliance" with.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:47 pm

ghibli wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:29 pm
at a minimum, make sure that your contract specifies that the major systems of hot water, heat, plumbing are operational, AND are the responsibility, excluding damage you may cause, of the landlord.
That's one of the first things I check. I think the lease I'm looking at now is ok.
ghibli wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:29 pm
Do take photos with time stamp during the inventory process. Do test all the locks, faucets, toilets, heat, drains (!) at the time of inventory.
I definitely plan to. The good thing about the house I'm looking at now, is it's almost identical to the one I currently live in. So I know what to look for.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

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fraggle092
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 am

You have too much respect for the Civil Law here, its an anachronistic mess.
And no, there is no presumption of "good faith". Los papeles hablan.
Not much Consumer Protection either.

If you want to know how the Chilean system of debt collection works, read through this:

To give an idea of how the locals manage, a look through parliamentarians' declared assets will show that they generally own very little, despite their mega salaries. Their goods are all in someone else's (usually a family member's) name. That's to avoid getting them tied up in an embargo. There is a local diputado from this region who hasn't paid a peso of an $180 million fine for fraud from nearly 10 years ago. (Correction; now he's started paying)

Caveat emptor
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thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:37 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 am
You have too much respect for the Civil Law here, its an anachronistic mess.
Thanks, I think that's my biggest problem. I really don't know how things work around here, but I'm slowly learning.
fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:07 am
And no, there is no presumption of "good faith".
I did read this from the "EY Global Legal Commercial Terms Handbook"
Regarding contracts, good faith is a ruling principle, explicitly recognized within the Chilean legislation. All contracts will have to be executed in good faith.
But I don't know if this applies to civil law. If the author has ever lived in Chile. Or if I even understand what "good faith" would really mean here.
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

thisisreallycomplicated
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Re: corredors and boilerplate leases

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:48 pm

I have another question. If you're buying a house in the US, the realtor typically works for the seller. So you can't really trust them to look after your best interests. Is it the same here, if you're trying to rent a house through a corredor? Does the corredor work for the landlord? The landlord and the tennant? Or does the corredor only work for the corredor? In other words, when they say "don't worry, don't worry, we'll resolve any disagreements you might have... no need to worry about that clause in the lease", how full of sh*t are they?
“Now it’s conspiracy – they’ve made that something that should not even be entertained for a minute, that powerful people might get together and have a plan. Doesn’t happen, you’re a kook, you’re a conspiracy buff!” – George Carlin

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