GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

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GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by admin » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:00 am

O.k., so the aniversery of the two 9/11's, this opion piece popped up warning americans that the same thing could happen in the u.s.a. as the over throw of Allende by the military.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... y#comments
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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by admin » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:34 am

First, i dont think the u.s. situation and the chilean dictatorship are remotly anylogist, except in the most broad sense of the conditions for a crisis of some sort exist.

Second, i am always suspicious of exhiles that idiolize the Allende administration, and try to spin the history in to some demigod savior of chile or would have saved chile by turning it in to some a socialst paradise had he been allowed to complete his work.

We know, with 110% certainty, that has never happened in history. If you want to know how that turns out, just look over the hill at our argentinan neighbors. They are still paying for a socialist royal family, and military dictatorships.

Allende was a dictator too. Full stop.

Neither allende nor pinochet were good for chile. Both brought massive suffering and undermined the democracy. Both upended the rule of law. Both set the development of the country back decades.

It reminds me of something a psycology professor once said about human development. You can cripple human maturation, slow it down; but you can not stop it. I believe something similar happens in societies and to democracies.

That line from star wars comes to mind, "So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause".

What kills it is irrelevant.

Even though both sides try to claim some sort of credit for chile today, and blaim the other for the failures of the country, chile's stability (and problems) today is a result of democratic balance that recognizes majority rule and minority rights.

The two dictatorships were failures, exactly because they failed to balance both. They failed to create the space for political and social discourse between all the groups and voices in the society. Both extremisms, smothered the other end of the spectrum and the social outlyers. The health of herd, is measured by the health of the weekest and most vulnerable; not how well the lead alphas are doing.

That balance had to be reconstructed after both failed, by the post-dictatorship democracy (and is still a work in progress). The apologists for both sides, have no cover in laying claim to what has been acomplished by chile since the end of the dictatorship. Chile accomplished that inspite of those two regimes.
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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by admin » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:59 am

As for the u.s., that is a whole diffrent story, for a whole diffrent set of social and historical reasons.

What is common to both countries, is they both went down the road of letting one side or the other demonize the diologe. That is, Close off the space for discussion of what direction we collectively want the country to go.

Once that takes root, the conflict cycle, the colapse and reconstruction, has to run its course; and that is always painful. Historicaly, often fatal to a society. War is destructive by definition, as a continuation of politics by other means, and that is never good for society. We only get back to political settlments in a war, when both sides have reached a stalemate in their strategic positiin and can gain no more ground in the battle field.

Paul shaffer, the hedge fund guy, said something important recently. In our personal lives, we need to set aside the joy and rush of being right, and focus on apreciating the truth. We need to aprecieta the thing-in-itself, the process, of seeking truth through seeking out people with opposing views, and then listening to why they have those views. Agreeing with them or not is a seperate process, but activly insuring we dont close them out in weighing everything there is to know on a subject.

In philosophy, it is refered to the 'principle of charity'; or putting the others argument in the best light possible. Even if your intent is attack that other position, it should not be done as a strawman.

His point is, that in today's echo chambers of the internet, it is easy for us to do with our own thought process; and even easier as a society.

If there is a parrelel to be had between chile and the u.s.a, it is there.
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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by Jamers41 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:16 pm

admin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:34 am

That line from star wars comes to mind, "So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause".

What kills it is irrelevant.

Wow, the admin quoting Star Wars (and one of the "bad" prequel movies at that).

Impressive, most impressive.

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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by mem » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:37 pm

Jamers41 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:16 pm
admin wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:34 am

That line from star wars comes to mind, "So this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause".

What kills it is irrelevant.

Wow, the admin quoting Star Wars (and one of the "bad" prequel movies at that).

Impressive, most impressive.
Bah - That was a good prequel. That phrase he quoted is one of the most memorable.

Full disclosure, I have a tough time watching the original Star Wars movies, same with Star Trek. It is a real chore...the sets are just so antiquated, the metronome of blinking christmas lights for "high tech consoles"..., the more modern shows are just so much more believable/reasonable, even if there are other tradeoffs in narrative.

Hmm this could be an abstract metaphor for Allende and Pinochet...lol

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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:34 pm

My frequent use of the word "Empire" harkens back to this older Gen Xer's view of the similarities between that 70's film and real real life. :alien:
Generally, just a SPAM KILLER. You are on your own in this forum. My personal mission here is done.

BUT when necessary, by way of ridicule and truth revelation we shalt do war.

--eeuunikkeiexpat

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Re: GUARDIAN: The Chile dictatorship is a warning to the U.S.A.

Post by admin » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:48 am

Hey it had had some o.k. moments, just not sufficient to make a whole movie out of them.
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