Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

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HybridAmbassador
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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by HybridAmbassador » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:45 pm

seawolf180 wrote:
Britkid wrote:OK, but let's say that now that they are not building this project, someone somewhere has to expand a coal or uranium mine one day instead to meet demand. Those things don't exactly tend to have a positive effect on the ecosystems they operate in. Who knows, building some hydro might be a net gain ecosystem wise. Shutting down the hydro plant and implying that this benefits Patagonia is not thinking globally or long term.

More importantly, I suspect that energy projects probably have only a small effect on wilderness reduction. I seriously doubt that many of us would be prepared to take the necessary steps to really protect wilderness areas. I would suggest the necessary steps for those of you that really care wilderness areas such as Patagonia are to address the areas that have a much bigger impact than a few hydro projects:

1. Change our attitude to animals. We have an excessively pro-human bias which we don't yet realize amounts to a kind of discrimination. When we make decisions, we should look at the pros and cons to humans and animals and see if it's a fair trade off rather than focusing primarily on our own species, with just minor concessions to animals. Example: taking 5 minutes to check online which shampoo doesn't test on animals is a big deal for the animals, but we just have to change shampoo. Very minor inconvenience for us. Major gain for animals. Hence unethical not to check if your shampoo is tested on animals. Until we change this basic attitude where we can't be bothered to make such a tiny, simple change even though animals are being shoved in cages and having chemicals forced into their eyes until they go blind, you can imagine what types of decisions we'll continue to take when it comes to animal ecosystems vs human interests and we are just doing to continue to be a plague on the planet from the point of view of other species.

2. Eat a vegetarian or a vegan diet, or at the very least greatly reduce meat, especially beef, the least ecological food that I know of. Most Amazon destruction is due to animal agriculture for example. Pasture grazing can be very destructive to ecosystems. Animal agriculture is horrific in terms of land use, pollution, carbon emissions, water use, the list goes on.

3. Reduce consumption. If you are getting a new phone each year, a new laptop every couple of years, top of the line vehicle, shopping for new shoes every few months etc etc, then you are having a bigger impact on the world. Only buy the things you need even if you are wealthy, and replace things that are actually broken or completely old.

4. Stop breeding. The more people, the more effect on ecosystems. People with no children have had a positive effect on wilderness and animals, people with three children or more, not so much. (I am not actually advocating for this, just pointing out that from the point of view of wilderness, it is the best thing.)

5. Make the effort to figure out how to reduce your carbon emissions. Actually take less flights, drive less miles, use renewables, and so on. See also points 2 and 3. It seems that global warming may be causing more natural disasters and ecosystem damage in the future. Not certain, but it's a big risk being taken.

Looking back over the points my own record has been pretty hit and miss to say the least, but I am trying to do better.

My wife is not currently fully accepting of my argument on point 3. :lol:
In response to your suggested intrusion into literally every conceivable part of my life...
1-5. No Way! Mind your own business.
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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by john » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:09 pm

Space Cat wrote:[
What will really solve many of our problems is a better "life skills" education for kids that will improve population's understanding of many topics, including ecology.
Astute observation! However, it's a quantum leap from the "dumbed-down" approach to education in vogue today to a "life skills" based education curricula. Moreover, since such a desired state implies a sound environmental stewardship as one of its core principles, it would appear to be in irreconcilable conflict with "free Market" capitalism.
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by Space Cat » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:36 pm

john wrote:
Space Cat wrote:[
What will really solve many of our problems is a better "life skills" education for kids that will improve population's understanding of many topics, including ecology.
Astute observation! However, it's a quantum leap from the "dumbed-down" approach to education in vogue today to a "life skills" based education curricula. Moreover, since such a desired state implies a sound environmental stewardship as one of its core principles, it would appear to be in irreconcilable conflict with "free Market" capitalism.
We don't need state reforms to educate people in the age of the global connectivity. Of course it would be great to get Finland-like life-oriented school education in Chile and every other country but modern technology gives an opportunity to spread knowledge without waiting for ineffective governments.

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by john » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:06 pm

Space Cat wrote:
john wrote:
Space Cat wrote:[
What will really solve many of our problems is a better "life skills" education for kids that will improve population's understanding of many topics, including ecology.
Astute observation! However, it's a quantum leap from the "dumbed-down" approach to education in vogue today to a "life skills" based education curricula. Moreover, since such a desired state implies a sound environmental stewardship as one of its core principles, it would appear to be in irreconcilable conflict with "free Market" capitalism.
We don't need state reforms to educate people in the age of the global connectivity. Of course it would be great to get Finland-like life-oriented school education in Chile and every other country but modern technology gives an opportunity to spread knowledge without waiting for ineffective governments.
Good points! Although important to embark upon such a quest, I believe that it would be a patch-work solution at best. IMHO, Ad hoc social media engagement is not a viable alternative to state sponsorship.
One must care about a world one will not see.
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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by Space Cat » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:22 pm

john wrote:Good points! Although important to embark upon such a quest, I believe that it would be a patch-work solution at best. IMHO, Ad hoc social media engagement is not a viable alternative to state sponsorship.
There are many non-profit initiatives that are more effective than states or especially UN. You can look up the achievements of the largest one – Gates Foundation. And patchwork has a chance to become a serious force if there's a right horizontal framework built for everyone to participate.

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by john » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:02 pm

Space Cat wrote:
john wrote:Good points! Although important to embark upon such a quest, I believe that it would be a patch-work solution at best. IMHO, Ad hoc social media engagement is not a viable alternative to state sponsorship.
There are many non-profit initiatives that are more effective than states or especially UN. You can look up the achievements of the largest one – Gates Foundation. And patchwork has a chance to become a serious force if there's a right horizontal framework built for everyone to participate.
I admire the work of non-profits such as the Gates Foundation...but they are no substitute for state sponsored initiatives. To successfully implement educational reforms of such magnitude would necessitate major state institutional and infrastructure enhancements along with requisite state funding. A patchwork framework (horizontal or otherwise) would be ineffective in achieving the same desired outcome.
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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by Space Cat » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:35 pm

john wrote:
Space Cat wrote:
john wrote:Good points! Although important to embark upon such a quest, I believe that it would be a patch-work solution at best. IMHO, Ad hoc social media engagement is not a viable alternative to state sponsorship.
There are many non-profit initiatives that are more effective than states or especially UN. You can look up the achievements of the largest one – Gates Foundation. And patchwork has a chance to become a serious force if there's a right horizontal framework built for everyone to participate.
I admire the work of non-profits such as the Gates Foundation...but they are no substitute for state sponsored initiatives. To successfully implement educational reforms of such magnitude would necessitate major state institutional and infrastructure enhancements along with requisite state funding. A patchwork framework (horizontal or otherwise) would be ineffective in achieving the same desired outcome.
They're great substitutes for state-sponsored initiatives when these initiatives are absent or barely functional.

Also I'm also not talking about replacing the educational system but adding some missing puzzle pieces. So the magnitude is not that big and governments can see it working and support if they're sane enough.

We have serious intentions to build one of these pieces and start implementing it in Chile in the next years. I just need to reduce my workload and get my Spanish to fluent, heh.

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by john » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:48 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Also I'm also not talking about replacing the educational system but adding some missing puzzle pieces. So the magnitude is not that big and governments can see it working and support if they're sane enough.

We have serious intentions to build one of these pieces and start implementing it in Chile in the next years. I just need to reduce my workload and get my Spanish to fluent, heh.
Can't argue with that logic. :)

Can you enlighten us on what you think those missing puzzle pieces are?

Again, don't know what you have in mild, but I do wish you good luck in achieving it.
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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by Space Cat » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:51 am

john wrote:Can you enlighten us on what you think those missing puzzle pieces are?

Again, don't know what you have in mild, but I do wish you good luck in achieving it.
There's a branch of design called "User experience design" or UX design.
The UX design of education sucks so hard. Except for Finnish schools, you can read about their amazing approaches online.

As you pointed, we're not a state to reform schools. But we're developers with experience in game design and UX design. And, by coincidence, kids love games (probably you know Minecraft boom).

Also there are tons of free educational material on the Internet but it's not like everybody knows where to search for it.

And we know how to combine it, turn it into games, and ship it on devices that will cost less than $100 per child. (Probably less than $80 at the time we're going to finish the project.)

It will be a non-profit where everyone in the world can buy devices like this for his town (or use their current PCs), install our ready-to-go open source software bundle and distribute it to local kids.

So the only question is: will we do it so good that it will go viral? We'll see.

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by frozen-north » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:51 am

Space Cat wrote:
As you pointed, we're not a state to reform schools. But we're developers with experience in game design and UX design. And, by coincidence, kids love games....
They also love chocolate, ice cream and pizza. :)

I am trying to understand your idea. Is it that of education through educational games?

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by frozen-north » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:58 am

john wrote:
Space Cat wrote: What will really solve many of our problems is a better "life skills" education for kids that will improve population's understanding of many topics, including ecology.
Astute observation! However, it's a quantum leap from the "dumbed-down" approach to education in vogue today to a "life skills" based education curricula. Moreover, since such a desired state implies a sound environmental stewardship as one of its core principles, it would appear to be in irreconcilable conflict with "free Market" capitalism.
"dumbed-down" approach to education , "life skills" based education curricula ??

I am not quite sure what is meant by these terms. Should they bring back Latin? :)

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Re: Futaleufú River Dam Fight Win- Endesa surrenders

Post by Space Cat » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:25 am

frozen-north wrote:
Space Cat wrote:
As you pointed, we're not a state to reform schools. But we're developers with experience in game design and UX design. And, by coincidence, kids love games....
They also love chocolate, ice cream and pizza. :)

I am trying to understand your idea. Is it that of education through educational games?
Educational games and software in general.

The idea is to bring English, programming, and life understanding (personal finance, health & diet, ecology, etc.) as a free software for cheap devices.

I'm not ready to pitch it properly right now anyway, we're on early design stage. :)

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