Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

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Donnybrook
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Donnybrook » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:55 pm

As long as the public transportation system is as bad as it is they will never get people out of their cars. It was obvious that the spike in the purchase of second hand cars after Transantiago arrived was because people were unwilling to subject themselves to such a poor service for commuting.

The promise made in the 90s that if people bought the more expensive "green" cars they would never be subject to driving restrictions is now past using as an excuse not to restrict catalytic cars on a regular basis. Non-catalytic cars only make up under 200,000 of the cars on the road, and a lot of them may not actually be on the road. Trucks are a different matter and many very old ones are on the road, so the regular restriction does help there. I don't see buses belching black smoke these days but there is no doubt they are not in the best condition. But you can't combine restricting buses on the road and also restricting private transport. The buses should be in good enough condition that they are a viable option and can be exempt from restrictions.

It is time (actually long past it) when double chamber wood burning stoves should be allowed. It is difficult to find them for sale now because logic indicates they should be banned and people are not buying them. Most are not in Las Condes but in Lo Barenechea, where temperatures drop a good deal lower in the winter than Las Conds. A good sign is that many people have moved to modern electric heaters, I have, but that might eventually cause its own problems with electricity consumption. But you have to have money to have options. Kerosene is still the most prevalent way of heating a Santiago home, braziers heat the poorest.

I have not seen the smog this bad since the late 80s/early 90s when you could see less than half a block ahead of you in the center of town. It has been an exceptionally dry June, but that may become the norm now. Some very drastic measures would have to be taken, and a lot of money spent, in order to make any significant change in the winter air quality in Santiago. Even more drastic measures would have to be taken in the south, where the air quality is sometimes actually worse in places like Coyhaique and Temuco. In general I am an optimistic person but I cannot see any political will to tackle these problems any time in the near future. Yet I think that taking some stiff measures would actually force things like public transport to improve and even force people to invest in better insulation in their homes.

bow26
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by bow26 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:15 pm

If anyone I knew in Chile turned round and said "let me just invest in some good insulation for my home" I would probably fall off my chair. What's the point in home improvements other people can't see?

You can just buy a really expensive toyotomi and then brag to anyone who will listen about how much it cost

Not that I don't agree with you entirely about it being a good idea.

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:11 pm

I still see plenty of transantiago buses belching out black smoke, I saw one last week that was still in service but couldn't go above 40kph on the autopista the other day. Often simple things like doors don't work or important safety things such as the turntables in the articulated buses are completely booked. There maintenance is poor on poorer bus routes but this is also where a huge amount of people ride with out paying, yet they keep fairs low for everyone else, so I have sympathy with the business also. Two hours on transantiago for 600 peso compared to London where you can easily pay equivalent to ten times that much.

The biggest problem I would have with electric heaters is how low house electrics trip at. 25 amps is a struggle for my wash machine, drier, television, cable TV box, internet modem, lights, computer set up, surround sound, kettle and oven to all be used at once in evening. When oven is cold and all heating elements switch on often it trips. How another high load like heating for house would go I don't know.

They need to sort there electrical safety out so they can raise house hold ampage to European levels, or at least half way.

I use gas heater, emissions are minimal.

Way to much industry with low chimney stacks belching out in Santiago probably doesn't help too. Route 5 northern from Santiago honks of chemicals from the industrial state some times.

As for insulating homes. From what I have seen houses are having more ventilation added, not only here but world wide I hear, to protect construction companies being liable for damp issues I feel. Easy way out. The house I'm in currently I had to improve the seals on even door and window. Close off vent on external kitchen door, stairwell cupboard external vent. This still left ventilation for wall cavities in roof. But this alone changed temperature of house dramatically, you don't need double glazing here it seems. Just prevent too much ventilation. It's warm enough in the day to keep you warm at night with no heating at all most the time I find.

Is there a map of copper mines around Santiago region? I hear loud bangs occasionally out my way, I thought I was mad when I thought it could possibly be mining.

Donnybrook
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Donnybrook » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:54 pm

YMMV.

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fraggle092
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:59 am

This week in Coyhaique, domestic wood burning stoves caused triple the amount of air pollution as Santiago. Generated by the same people that violently opposed the HydroAysen project for supposedly "ecological" reasons a couple of years ago. No consideration for the deforestation caused by burning all of those trees either.

http://www.eldinamo.cl/ambiente/2015/06 ... ambiental/
Après moi, le déluge

scandinavian
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by scandinavian » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:12 am

Heard in the radio this morning that they are contemplating a full ban on leña in the Santiago province next year. Causes 30% of all pollution - 5% of homes use leña. Of course, they need to enforce it...
Furthermore, I saw that they are also looking at changing the restrictions for vehicles to be based on age of car.

Both very welcome changes if you ask me.

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Dosedmonkey » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:08 pm

Yeah yesterday on the news they mentioned about banning log burning in Santiago being currently evaluated.

I did pay attention today and looked how many cello verde cars that were under restriction drove and ignored it, a fair few, didn't see any carabineros stopping them. But still a lot less then when there is no restriction. Probably only a few percent ignored it.

Tomorrow I can't drive in Santiago. Worse bit is the car park at the outer metro station is tiny and holds about 100 cars, so you never know if it is going to be full or not. Might just stay at home/out of Santiago.

Banning by age of car is stupid. By how much pollution it makes would be much more logical. 'A brand new 4x4 causes a lot more pollution then my old Peugeot 206.

Donnybrook
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Donnybrook » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:16 am

Banning by age of car is stupid. By how much pollution it makes would be much more logical. 'A brand new 4x4 causes a lot more pollution then my old Peugeot 206
That is interesting as they say the opposite when they talk about restriction by age. Can you explain?

bert.douglas
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by bert.douglas » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:50 am

Donnybrook wrote:
Banning by age of car is stupid. By how much pollution it makes would be much more logical. 'A brand new 4x4 causes a lot more pollution then my old Peugeot 206
That is interesting as they say the opposite when they talk about restriction by age. Can you explain?
Pollution by law (and in practice with readily available instruments) is measured in "parts per million". You capture a sample of exhaust gas, measure how much pollution is in it, and take the ratio. You get a figure for "parts" of pollution per million "parts" of exhaust gas.

A big engine has more displacement. This means that it pumps more air and produces more exhaust. The actual pollution is greater, but it is diluted by more air. So the resulting pollution figure (as measured) is the same as a small engine.

Fundamentally, pollution is proportional to the amount of fuel burned. The pollution regulations rely on economic forces to motivate people to minimize fuel consumption. On average this works well. But it does allow rich people to waste fuel.

Donnybrook
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Donnybrook » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:11 am

Thanks, very clear.

The statistics they have been showing give double chamber wood or pellet burning heaters a much bigger chunk of the pollution pie than cars. I would think those are for the chop. There aren't enough people to police them on pre-emergencia and emergencia days. They should have announced their demise a few years ago and we would be rid of them now. I can still remember the coal fires in London and the difference when they forbade their use.

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by Dosedmonkey » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:47 pm

Good explanation Bert.

Essentially my small hatchback uses less Litres of fuel per Kilometer then a new 4x4 does, due to the greater weight of a 4x4, larger resistance caused by larger wheels and wider wheels, causing large contact surface to the road. Great for off roading up slopes, but not for flat city driving. To over come the larger mass of the vehicle and the extra resistance of the wheels, the engines burn much more fuel. My hatch back being a 1.6 litre, opposed to a 4x4 being a 4 to 6 litre engine. 6 litre is close four times my engine burning capacity, such as the Chevrolet Silverado which I often see blocking up lanes in Chile. A true city car is as low as 1.1 litre engine.

A brand new Chevrolet Silverado has a 14 mpg (miles per gallon), compared to my 45 mpg of my hatch back, and thats just a quick figure search. The only advantage of some modern cars is, the engine will stop when not moving in traffic. But I don't know how wide that feature is in cars, and if it is only in smaller city designed cars.

The type of fuel burnt effects emissions a lot also, and the form it is burnt, e.g. temperature, air/fuel mix, if under compression/pressure or not.
A log burning fire is usually open, or not controlled as optimum as a engine combustion, so for this reason the log fires cause a lot of pollution, even a gas heater is much better then a log fire.

If you use electric heating, not only is power created by renewable sources such as hydro electrical or wind turbine. But even fossil fuel power stations are hugely efficient and run at optimum efficiency at all times, as it makes a huge financial difference for power companies.

Even my 2006 Peugeot 206 has a oxygen sensor in the exhaust, to control the air inlet choke/butterfly valve, to allow better, cleaner combustion, and electronic timing for spark plugs. So I feel stopping older cars is more of a gimic to allow the richer to drive in Santiago, and make some extra cash for car sales and imports. On the plus sides second hand cars are expensive here compared to other countries, so it might cause a drop in second hand car prices for us people who don't like investing in brand new cars.

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Re: Santiasco Air Quality a la Bei Jing..

Post by frozen-north » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:38 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Marti has resurrected himself! ......................

Spoke too soon...checking back an hour later, that post has now disappeared. Odd.
I noticed it too. His reply to 'bert.douglas' that pollution is measured in grams/km or grams/mile and not in "parts per million" is gone. That is correct for some pollutants, but not for particulate matter -mentioned by 'scandinavian' , which is measured in micrograms per cubic meter.

Main motor vehicle emissions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas

Here you can check cars:

http://fueleconomy.gov/m/m.do?action=getMenuYear

or look at trucks:
2015 Most and Least Efficient Trucks
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/best/be ... ksNF.shtml

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