Where Should I Start?

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Julito
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Julito » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:22 pm

I agree, tell it from your perspective and recollection El Puelche, it´s interesting.

However after searching long and hard I couldn´t find any reference anywhere to a communist "museo" much less 850 caps. I thought perhaps it was propaganda which grew legs, the old tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. I couldn´t imagine that all assassins would have the presence of mind, time or opportunity to grab a cap when a clean escape would be the highest priority.

Sooo.... I asked my wife who had an "interesting" history during the dictatorship and afterwards in 1990-1992 worked in the Comision Verdad y Reconciliacion, Informe Rettig. She has a prodigious memory for names, dates and circumstances of events during and after the dictatorship and it was the first she´d heard of it. She suggests it was either propaganda or perhaps depicted in a movie she´s never seen. She does say there were occasionally parts of uniforms found in arms caches but never "collections" as such.

frozen-north
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by frozen-north » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:22 pm

Putenio wrote:
He should tell it from his point of view and recollection. He's invited us to add to the conversation. If we have an alternative view, source, or information to offer, why not simply post it?
Yes, El Puelche" is entitled to his opinions or points of view, but what SCL challenged was a *fact*. And while El Puelche is entitled to his opinions, he is not entitled to his own facts.

And what was El Puelche reply to that challenge? He did not provide any reference or source.
Sr. El Puelche wrote: Mr. ScL,

What is your proof against what i say?
I would think that for something that nobody has ever heard of, El Puelche is the one that should submit some evidence if he expects to be believed.

Old, blood stained 'gorras' would not be something that would have gone unnoticed.

And it is not just ' recollections' that are the issue, some of what he is telling is of a time when he wasn't in Chile.

frozen-north
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by frozen-north » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:29 pm

Sr. El Puelche wrote:
A few day El Mercurio published the communist death lists—my family, to a name, was on the list.
The plan Z ??

Los archivos desclasificados de la CIA a partir de 1999 demostraron que el Plan Zeta jamás existió, y que su divulgación fue una operación de guerra psicológica de los militares chilenos, específicamente de la Armada de Chile, en que impusieron la lógica del «ellos o nosotros» para justificar la represión y violaciones a los derechos humanos llevados a cabo durante la dictadura militar.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Zeta_%28Chile%29

Chilean individuals who had collaborated with the CIA but were not acting at CIA direction assisted in the preparation of the “White Book,” a document intended to justify overthrowing Allende. It contained an allegation that leftists had a secret “Plan Z” to murder the high command in the months before the coup, which CIA believed was probably disinformation by the Junta.

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/gen ... s-1/chile/

at46
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by at46 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:57 pm

The guy is a good writer. He creates a world and puts you in the middle of it. Why not enjoy the experience? Why pick at the details and destroy the atmosphere for yourself and for others? Do you correct errors in a historical movie for people in the theater while they're still watching it? Relax and enjoy the ride fgs.

frozen-north
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by frozen-north » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:20 pm

at46 wrote:
The guy is a good writer. He creates a world and puts you in the middle of it. Why not enjoy the experience? Why pick at the details and destroy the atmosphere for yourself and for others? Do you correct errors in a historical movie for people in the theater while they're still watching it? Relax and enjoy the ride fgs.
No problem if it had been presented as 'My memories, real and invented', and understood this way, but, as you could see from the comments, some think that what he is telling is what he remembers, and that it is an accurate account of those days. Even the way he reacted when questioned was as if that was the impression he wanted to create.

Julito
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Julito » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:28 pm

Indeed a good writer and we were invited to comment, just keep it polite. In all fairness peoples experiences, memories and ultimate judgements of the dictatorship are incredibly varied even within Chilean families, but it´s always interesting to hear them.

Keep going El Puelche...

Sr. El Puelche
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Sr. El Puelche » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:44 am

Okay so a couple things----I will identify episodes when I was not in Chile and did not experience them myself----In regard to news bias on the part of media------Yeah, it could have been fabricated-----the cap story was on the news in television and print media and I saw it----I talked with Chileans I knew in Carabineros and the air force-----confirmed----But to be clear this was not a museo with caps from just a year or two but from the beginning of the dictatorship and included caps from all branches-----As I said, anyone military or Carabineros were required to travel in twos and have their service weapon at all times-----a result of the assassinations-----this was common at time in 84, 85, 86 and going into 87.

A right wing perspective-------I have no doubt of the abuse on the left during this time------and as well that of innocents. Not saying its right and my family suffered abuse from the left when they were in power too----I will relate that in time as it comes up but to make sense of a story and what went on.

Maybe my point and view would be that while the right and the left brought the horror of death to people in equal amounts----with the right in power Chileans could live better and un molested in their daily lives regardless of their beliefs and thoughts-----yes this will get some comments I know but we all have live beneath a government and the laws they enforce------just the way it is.

I appreciate SCL's coming up with what he said----I challenged him and he investigated it-----not conclusive yet but he/she responded it and good. BTW it's Gorro and not Gorra.

Someone said telling this story without a political view----- how can i do that? I mean its me experiencing all of this, how can I tell a story around that? I have not been secretive in regard to my political views and personal way of life. Just to soften and clean what I saw happen? I don't think so and as someone said, if you don't like it, don't read it. I really hope you do anyway because it challenges me and the common thought I am always right (pun intended)----but out of it all we discover other points of view------I like that.

I am only going to relate what i saw, lived, smelled and tasted--------you can disagree with it, all good.

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Sr. El Puelche
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Sr. El Puelche » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:42 pm

Now the government became much more aggressive in going after the communists. Its not like they weren’t before but it was definitely more passive before as they waited for a bank attempt, assassination or bombing to occur. It was not Dodge City by any means but gunfire was now fairly common in Santiago. Out and about you could hear it and make your way around to get home or to meet someone. Personally I never saw an attentado in progress at this time except for the aftermath——I remember I had gone to Valparaiso for the day and came across a blown apart car (motorcycle iron bomb) which killed a Naval officer and then others as well in Santiago. During this time the communists picked up their game as well——robbing banks and planting bombs and just general chaos. It might have been later but I think it was during this time, a LAN Chile pilot, landing at SCL observed two or three? bodies in a canal near the airport——it was reported and turned out to be two or three catholic priests with their throats cut——they were Belgian and this was big———

Communists armed and committed to their struggle did not work——obviously to much to do——so the robbed banks to fund their cause. Now you can be a communist on the regular and its not your part to actively struggle in this way——I am talking about the FMLR and other groups——especially from their armed wing.

In Chile churches and universities were autonomous—that is to say, the police or any authority could not and would not enter these areas under any official business——bank robbers would often flee to a church to escape capture——the church may, or may not hide them but most often they did——Liberation Theology, beginning in Brazil in the early 70’s, brought about an informal doctrine and not sanctioned by the vatican at the time——it would never happen anyway with a Polish Pope raised in a communist state——but the doctrine took over in a big way with priests having to respond to impoverished parishes suffering economically, socially or culturally. Now priests and clergy can adapt what they can an feel appropriate——risking sancture from the Vatican of course but its a long process and even the Vatican has rules———Priests in Chile decided to help the poor much beyond what the Vatican could look past. Arch Bishop Romero of El Salvador was a victim in this, assassinated as he gave mass. I think it was five American nuns that were also raped and murdered there in a reaction by right wing militia in a response to this informal doctrine. The government had their eye on the church as a result.

Liberation Theology was basically saying that priests had the avenue and right to act out against social injustice in what ever way they had the power to do so——based on biblical principals, it was very much on the edge of violating civl law. Pope John Paul II denounced the doctrine which did not mean priests in Chile stopped it. To be clear it was a doctrine much more used in Central America and the jungle countries of South America than in Chile but it was there.

So in Chile, during your senior year of high school, you take a test——it determines first if you will continue to study a vocation———mechanic, carpenter, sales etc———or if you will continue at university. Your numbered score is matched up to a profession like lawyer, doctor, journalist, business etc——You have to choose a profession from your score and down———professions all have a numbered value and you can’t choose a profession above your score——its very competitive and scores are published by name in the newspaper———After choosing a profession, a student is assigned a position in any one of the national universities through out Chile——Coquimbo has a marine biology program so you might go there——there are law departments in several regional universities so the highest scores go to the U de Chile in Santiago for becoming a lawyer and so on with medicine etc…

As I said its highly competitive——It would be most difficult for a Chilean student to work and go to school and its just not done (private technical schools aside)———Grades are given on the 1 to 7 range with 7 being excellent——You cannot fail a class——if you do I there is a waiting period where you have to take it over again and get a passing grade——I think a student would have two tries to make grade——if a student cannot make grade, they are let go and can never resume studies again——at least in a state school.

The reason why this is important is because it was a protected safety ground for communists——they could delay studies in the cleverest way, go to class and actually live on campus well out of reach of the authorities. I had many friends in Chile at university as students and would visit quite a bit——mostly the U de Chile and not so much La Catolica———knew mostly professors at La Catolica. It was common for communists to take over classrooms and ancillary rooms on campus to make bombs———no cops to catch then and faculty as well as classified workers were complicit in this. Now if regular Chilean society was clearly divided as pro or anti Pinochet and it was known——on a university campus it was much more clear—another reason for communists to be there——a willing army of people, mostly co-eds, to carry out tasks including planting bombs and driving the get away car in a bank robbery—as well as lets just say, campus girlfriends.

So the government focussed on these student cells——it was not to say there were not others, outside the university, were not actively involved——mostly in overall planning and doctrine where mostly students were left as soldiers to do the dirty work. The government went to work rooting them out and that summer was filled with it.


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Putenio
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Putenio » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:59 pm

adding to timeline

1989, dependent, US Embassy Staff. Was told the Ambassador (or admn, or someone with authority) said I couldn't study at UdeChile - too communist, problems, international relation issues - but the Catolica was fine. They took care of all the paperwork for admissions, initial transportation, some supervision. Heard the lecture on don't go near crowds, don't stand near protests, don't be confused for a Chilean, and don't say anything about politics, period. Had to go to the Consulate after classes - mirrors under vehicles when entering, security - and a bombing, 1989 or 1990.

Sr. El Puelche
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Sr. El Puelche » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:08 pm

Haaa-----never said anything about Trump or really anything US related----except for the complete ineptitude of the US Country reports. Maybe come up with something solid to say so it can be viewed and discussed tit for tat.

Just relating what I saw as I saw it, maybe if you did that you would have an argument for what you have seen. Just throwing darts is not going to do it-----if you have a position beyond little quips lets hear it-----I invite you to share------I advise you to bring your best game as I bring mine-----not much in Chile I did not see or hear first hand.

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Putenio
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by Putenio » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:58 pm

SCL wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:02 pm
Uf.... another successful graduate from Trump University, Latin-American Studies Dept...
Is this another personal attack that contributes nothing to the conversation?

I perceive it as just troll bait. If you don't like the point, fact, or perspective - why not present a coherent argument to the contrary? I've never understood why people, masked at a distance, vent and attack in ways that don't contribute constructively to a conversation.

frozen-north
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Re: Where Should I Start?

Post by frozen-north » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:39 am

SCL wrote:
Uf.... another successful graduate from Trump University, Latin-American Studies Dept...
El Puelche wrote:
Haaa-----never said anything about Trump ....
The school of 'alternative facts'.

Allende .... chose to shoot himself with a gold plated ak 47
Gold plated?

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