Climate changing in Chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
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fraggle092
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:47 pm
"scientific evidence clearly shows.."
That's just a way of investing an unsubstantiated claim with respectability. "Scientific evidence" can be made to "prove" whatever you want it to.
Britkid wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:47 pm
Just because something bad has happened in the past or will again in the future doesn't make it OK to let it happen now if we can stop it. It's not a good argument. The deniers are in serious retreat.
Let it happen?
We have zero control over planetary-scale events.....global warming and cooling cycles have being occurring long before we came along.
jehturner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:26 pm
People rarely seem to acknowledge overpopulation as one of the main roots of this problem
Its not just sheer numbers. Per capita resource consumption is also on the rise - everywhere. I believe this is the crux of the matter, its why we are damaging this planet. But the problems of uncontrolled population growth are hardly even being recognized yet, perhaps due to the multiple, and highly sensitive, issues involved.
Its an illusion to believe that biodegradable plastic bags, solar panels and electric cars are going to allow us to maintain the present status quo indefinitely. IMHO, the current obsession with eco-trivia is itself a denial of a harder reality.

And as for worrying about a dry year in Chile:
The territory of Central Chile has been affected by long-term droughts in 1280–1450, 1570–1650 and 1770–1820
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at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:59 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm
IMHO, the current obsession with eco-trivia is itself a denial of a harder reality.[/b]
Eco-trivia sells at a better mark-up, so... Plus, the whole eco-fearmongering makes a lot of people open up the wallet to consume even more as they've only one life to live.

Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:15 pm

I think over consumption is part of the problem, yes. I try to buy only what I really need or really want and am fairly minimalist. I think that is the right way forward, instead of working hard and stressing out so you can have the biggest house, the shiniest car, fashionable clothes, the top smart phone, and a bunch of junk you don't need. It's better for the environment to be minimalist yes, but also more free time, get to retire earlier because you save up money.

I agree that over population is an issue and it should be talked about more.

Too many people try to frame it as one or other angle being more important than the other, to the exclusion of the other. Controlling population growth, eating less meat, changing to renewable energies and reducing over consumption are all important and can work together, but people tend to argue for one over the other. And so you get (usually implicit) arguments along the lines of "I don't have children so I don't see why I should cut my carbon footprint." (or vice versa)

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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by admin » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:51 pm

There is a statistic that always sticks in my mind now, when thinking about buying something else.

prior to the industrial revolution, perhaps just up to a hundred years ago, most people only owned two or three personal things. perhaps a knife, a gun, bow and arrows, a bible, etc. most everything else they 'owned', was communal property of some sort; even that was very limited. For example, perhaps a few farmers, or just a family, shared the same horse or ox, perhaps a sowing machine, etc.

now, we have storage facilities for our storage facilities. The last two times I cleaned out a storage room or garage, I just made the decision, 'I don't even care what this stuff is worth, what I paid for it, or how useful it might be someday. I simply want it out of my life'. so i just started giving everything away. I simply don't want to worry about it anymore.

I also had the insight, the square meter value of most of the places I store stuff, after a few years, costs more than the stuff in the storage. sort of defeats the purpose of saving most of it in the first place.
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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:01 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:15 pm


I agree that over population is an issue and it should be talked about more.

Is it though? I'm going to look into that some more, but reports I've been reading recently are that population projections that are only a couple of years old are being completly revised and lowered as birth rates in many countries, especially African, have fallen off a cliff in the last 10 years. Far more rapidly than what other developing countries did over the last 30 years, and as they get richer those downward trends will only accelerate.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:04 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm


And as for worrying about a dry year in Chile:
The territory of Central Chile has been affected by long-term droughts in 1280–1450, 1570–1650 and 1770–1820
Not so much just a dry year , more a dry decade and indeed a dry century thus far , also pointing out the fact that they completely misread the whole situation and claimmed it was going to be a particularly wet winter for Santiago back in March.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:09 pm

admin wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:51 pm


I also had the insight, the square meter value of most of the places I store stuff, after a few years, costs more than the stuff in the storage. sort of defeats the purpose of saving most of it in the first place.
This situation has always confused me too, especially considering how cheap stuff is nowadays, unless it had sentimenal value or was very rare why would pay to store it for a long period of time? I guess others think that too and that's how they manage to have those storage lot shows where they bid for the contents after the owners walk away from it.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 am

41southchile wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:01 pm
Is it though? I'm going to look into that some more, but reports I've been reading recently are that population projections that are only a couple of years old are being completly revised and lowered as birth rates in many countries, especially African, have fallen off a cliff in the last 10 years. Far more rapidly than what other developing countries did over the last 30 years, and as they get richer those downward trends will only accelerate.
Possibly so, but there is still the problem of the many Billions living now in poverty who naturally aspire to the "better life" we take for granted, with the increased resource consumption that entails. Even in the unlikely event that the global population did level off, resource depletion and environmental damage will continue unabated, and may increase.
The Consumers of the Future
Developing countries also have the greatest potential to expand the ranks of consumers. China and India’s large consumer set constitutes only 16 percent of the region’s population, whereas in Europe the figure is 89 percent. Indeed, in most developing countries the consumer class accounts for less than half of the population—suggesting considerable room to grow.
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/810
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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:51 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 am
41southchile wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:01 pm
Is it though? I'm going to look into that some more, but reports I've been reading recently are that population projections that are only a couple of years old are being completly revised and lowered as birth rates in many countries, especially African, have fallen off a cliff in the last 10 years. Far more rapidly than what other developing countries did over the last 30 years, and as they get richer those downward trends will only accelerate.
Possibly so, but there is still the problem of the many Billions living now in poverty who naturally aspire to the "better life" we take for granted, with the increased resource consumption that entails. Even in the unlikely event that the global population did level off, resource depletion and environmental damage will continue unabated, and may increase.
The Consumers of the Future
Developing countries also have the greatest potential to expand the ranks of consumers. China and India’s large consumer set constitutes only 16 percent of the region’s population, whereas in Europe the figure is 89 percent. Indeed, in most developing countries the consumer class accounts for less than half of the population—suggesting considerable room to grow.
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/810
Then maybe we shouldn't waste so much food and be more efficient with our resources, and produce more lab foods , fish farms etc. I find it difficult to believe the whole over population narrative that we won't be able to feed and support everyone , the billions now aspiring for a better life should be able to have it if the world is smart enough. Poverty has not always been about a lack of food or resources to go around it's the inability to distribute and organize resources in shithole countries due to corruption or ineptitude
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by admin » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:21 am

here an article on this very subject:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08- ... ore-demand

I find the charts they use annoyingly over loaded with info, but interesting.
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Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:32 am

41southchile wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:01 pm
Britkid wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:15 pm


I agree that over population is an issue and it should be talked about more.

Is it though? I'm going to look into that some more, but reports I've been reading recently are that population projections that are only a couple of years old are being completly revised and lowered as birth rates in many countries, especially African, have fallen off a cliff in the last 10 years. Far more rapidly than what other developing countries did over the last 30 years, and as they get richer those downward trends will only accelerate.
Do you understand the concept that the world's population, currently below 8 billion, will inevitably increase to 10 billion or 11 billion even if everyone has only an average of 2 children because the world currently has more younger than older people in it? This video explains it very clearly: https://youtu.be/2LyzBoHo5EI

So we are going to 10 or 11 billion in a world where people are using more resources and global warming will create more challenges. Now when we get to 11 billion it may top off and stop growing or even go down, but what worries me is getting to 10 or 11 billion a generation from now.

We may well have wonderful, unimaginable technologies that allow us to support 10 billion people easily on earth in the future. But I'd rather get those technologies first and then expand the population, rather than expanding first and just risking it. Of course, if everyone would just go vegetarian and mostly vegan, we would easily be able to support 10 billion easily right now with the available land.

The human population's expansion has also meant that most other non-human life has died off as a result, which is very sad.

Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:42 am

The population debate is related to a land use debate

I saw an interesting video recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL1rpFCBg5s&t=0s
Watch from 2.45 to 3.30

Half of the land area of the planet is used for growing food and grazing animals. If we all went vegetarian and mostly vegan, I think it would probably be about 10%-20% since much of this land area used for pasture produces only a small part of the food (e.g. beef) and since even the majority of the crops are grown to feed animals rather than eaten directly.

Also, it's thought that climate change will cause land area available for growing food to reduce (and this is already starting, as we discussed earlier).

So population, land use and climate change are related issues.

If we cut our carbon footprint, we can support more people.

If we cut out meat consumption, we can support more people.

If we have less people, we can eat more meat.

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