chile's migration crisis

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:33 pm

looks like even switzerland is in doubt now:
https://www.thelocal.ch/20181121/swiss- ... ation-pact
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:27 pm

so i read through the u.n. pact.

that is a straight-up attempt to backdoor extremly liberal imigration policies in to countries, that would never stand a chance of passing domestic legislative processes (in probably 99% of them). it realy is taking a shot at eliminating boarders.

The problem is, by commiting to that "none-binding" aggreement, it becomes the basis for a whole rats nest of legal challenges and rights being confired to migrants that do not exist otherwise in most country's domestic laws. it becomes public policy, merely by goverments signing it, due to other international agreements and domestic laws. of course it does not work like that in all countries, but for most western democracies it will serve that purpose.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:01 am

I'm really confused about all this , on one hand I don't trust MB or any of those UN agencies that much so that makes me bias too . On the other hand I haven't really seen much that looks like it is trying to create any type or borderless world taking sovereignty away from countries and the economist article this week has also raised more questions than has answered. Don't countries still need to cooperate ? even if it's to send immigrants back rather than throwing them in detention centres to go mad and commit suicide.
From UN
The Global Compact for Migration is the first-ever UN global agreement on a common approach to international migration in all its dimensions. The global compact is non-legally binding. It is grounded in values of state sovereignty, responsibility-sharing, non-discrimination, and human rights, and recognizes that a cooperative approach is needed to optimize the overall benefits of migration, while addressing its risks and challenges for individuals and communities in countries of origin, transit and destination.
As i say Im confused and don't know whether to believe the Right wing conspiracy theorists or the left wing conspiracy theorists.
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by mem » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am

I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:31 am

besides the crazy broad nature of that agreement, what stands out me is the commitments of countries to pass legislation that essentialy eliminates "illegal" immigration by decriminalizing it, not stopping it. all immigration becomes "regular" immigration, and people emmigrating for economic reasons get's elevated to the same legal and rights status as refugies; but further to thatt of a citizen or "legal" resident.


if there are no penalties, then anyone can cross a boarder without restriction to any country.

if a country can not say who and who can not be in the their territory, right of sovernity and citizenship become meaningless.

no point in having passports, passport control, and even the very constitutional definitions of citizen and country become rather meaningless. territory is a fundemental defining feature of a country. who is or is not a citizen also.

for example, the u.s. constitution. Most americans even fail to understand this, starts by asserting the first right in the first three words "We the people...". it is a statement about where the authority for this contract is derived, and who are the parties to this contract. it is not a king. it is not a god. it is "...of the united states of america".

it has been upheld by the u.s. supreme court that the u.s. goverment can not unilateraly cancel that rights (e.g. citizenship) contained in those first three words.

do we now wave our right to the authority of the u.n.? how about to the excutive branch of the u.s. goverment, to determine who is and is not an american citizen, as covered in later clauses of the constitution? how about the authority of "we the people" to elect congress, to set immigration law, etc?

because in the same way that trump can loose in court, over racist statments he made on the campaign trail about muslim immigrants, that compact has at least administrative executive force as an official u.s. goverment position. same along the lines as those "inter govermental agreements" the u.s. forced on other countries regarding tax information reporting.

i suspect, at least most common law countries, are opening a similar can of worms with it.

in the case of chile, with it's 5 years of residency to vote and become a citizen, there is a real danger of loss of sovereignty.

what happens if say 10 million, 20 million (just a small city in china), or even 50 million chinese move to chile all at once? in 5 to 10 years, any native born chilean has lost any even kind of influence over the direction of the country. chile can not give up control of who get's their foot un door, exactly because it is so permisive and welcoming to new migrants once they are here.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:34 am

mem wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am
I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)
he is a silent member of the forum.

(yea, i see your network adress block from the moneda in the middle of the night). :lol:
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by at46 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:40 am

mem wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am
I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)
Pinera actually voiced his concern back in September during his US visit when he brought up the issue of brain drain out of Haiti. Of course, Chile would have still signed up had it not been for the great winds of change that he must have felt at G20.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:21 pm

Here is the thing.

I am all for standardizing international migration. Hell, I am even o.k. with the idea of someday giving up international boarders. However, the World is nowhere close to that point.

There is this strange assumption by the supporters of this pact, that assumes all countries are equipped to handle migration. That mass migration has no consequences on the receiving country; nor, the country they are leaving. In fact, if all countries were equipped to handle it, there would not be nearly as much migration. People, for the most part, would be happy where they are at.

I am against this 'default' to accept all migrants, for a bunch of reasons.

Chief among them, that in a lot of the world, people's identification simply can not be trusted. Who are they?

Over half the countries signing this agreement, can not even positively identify their own citizens. How many do they have? Where are they? How many are they?

I have a whole inbox of email from people from all over the World, that I can not accept as clients, because I can not trust their identification nor verify who they are (not without spending tens of thousands of dollars). Can I really trust a birth certificate, a passport, from Syria? How about Pakistan? how about Iran? There are large groups and classes of migrants, that have no identification at all.

Yea, I know there was an attempt to address it in that pact, but that is not sufficient. Until, you can positively identify the people moving across the boarders, the rest of it makes no sense at all.

You know what this smells like. It is the same frigen mistake the European Union made, in undermining the democratic process in favor of making administrative decisions by European technocrats. It is the same mistake the EU made when they ran around adding countries left and right that were not ready to join the EU. It is this just blow-up the system, by treating all countries equally, when they simply are not ready. It is biting the EU in the rear, and threatening to blow-up the whole project. So, do you want to make the same mistake with the entire globe?

This like in reaction to the brexit, EU is pushing to double down on migration to prove the British wrong; when right now the evidence is that unlimited migration is not going well in the EU.

Start with small, regional, manageable projects. Test a bit. study it. reform the plan. test a lot more. Once you got a few objectives working, move on to a few others on the wish list.

This all or nothing suicide pact they want to jump in to, for the entire world, is just crazy.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by at46 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:11 pm

admin wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:21 pm

You know what this smells like. It is the same frigen mistake the European Union made, in undermining the democratic process in favor of making administrative decisions by European technocrats. It is the same mistake the EU made when they ran around adding countries left and right that were not ready to join the EU. It is this just blow-up the system, by treating all countries equally, when they simply are not ready. It is biting the EU in the rear, and threatening to blow-up the whole project. So, do you want to make the same mistake with the entire globe?
EU did not make any mistakes taking all those countries in. It's the 4th German Reich and Germany is the one that benefited the most by destroying competition in those countries, sucking their brains out and loading them up with good German debt. The elephant in the china shop is China, with all the technology, market size and military power to stifle any competition out there. Does anyone have any doubts that China will turn EU into a US-type wasteland, given free market access? China's London-based friends are using alien immigration to set back Germany's advance, ditto gillets jeunes. For important resource countries like Chile a hundred thousand aliens is all that's needed to keep the government toe the line.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by HybridAmbassador » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm

Nothing to do with Chile migration but, why is Gillets Jeunes crowd movement still going on in France when the Napoleon Macron announced that for the time being, there will be no gas tax rise to the masses? Also there are new rumors that Vladimir Putin is instigating its riots? What gives?
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by at46 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:26 pm

The Brits instigating gillets jeunes is their parting gift to EU, as in 'If I can't have you, no one will have you'. Putin's view is he doesn't want the German gorilla monster in the Kremlin. So whatever distracts that monster from Russia and weakens him, is good enough for Putin.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by bert.douglas » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:29 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 pm
... why is Gillets Jeunes crowd movement still going on in France when the Napoleon Macron announced that for the time being, there will be no gas tax rise to the masses? ...
Crowds are not generally rational, once they get some momentum.
Besides there are a lot of other problems in France. This most recent additional tax is just the straw that broke the camel's back. People are still struggling under too many regulations and taxes.

Did you ever think to ask, from where came all the yellow jackets? Well it was a government regulation. Not long ago. Every single driver was forced buy a yellow jacket and keep it in his/her car. The ostensible reason is for safety in case your car is disabled. Supposedly, If you wear the yellow jacket, other motorists will be able to see you and avoid hitting you while you are walking along the road.

But this is nanny state over-reach. And I think there is some corruption involved too. The company making the yellow jackets probably has a political connection.

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