chile's migration crisis

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at46
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:44 pm

Looks like Chile is not signing on to the world without borders https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... mano.shtml

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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:58 pm

Best news of the day.
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:44 pm

at46 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:44 pm
Looks like Chile is not signing on to the world without borders https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... mano.shtml

8_0
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:45 pm

“Nuestra posición es clara. Nosotros decimos que la migración no es un derecho humano. El derecho lo tienen los países de definir las condiciones de ingreso de los ciudadanos extranjeros”, indicó el subsecretario del Interior, Rodrigo Ubilla, agregando que “si fuera un derecho humano, entonces estamos en un mundo sin fronteras. Creemos firmemente en los derechos humanos de los migrantes, pero no que migrar sea un derecho humano”.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:02 pm

here article in english about chile's decision to not sign:

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1O80QT

meanwhile, sounds like belgium goverment is in crisis over supporting the pact:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ation-pact
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:33 pm

looks like even switzerland is in doubt now:
https://www.thelocal.ch/20181121/swiss- ... ation-pact
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:27 pm

so i read through the u.n. pact.

that is a straight-up attempt to backdoor extremly liberal imigration policies in to countries, that would never stand a chance of passing domestic legislative processes (in probably 99% of them). it realy is taking a shot at eliminating boarders.

The problem is, by commiting to that "none-binding" aggreement, it becomes the basis for a whole rats nest of legal challenges and rights being confired to migrants that do not exist otherwise in most country's domestic laws. it becomes public policy, merely by goverments signing it, due to other international agreements and domestic laws. of course it does not work like that in all countries, but for most western democracies it will serve that purpose.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:01 am

I'm really confused about all this , on one hand I don't trust MB or any of those UN agencies that much so that makes me bias too . On the other hand I haven't really seen much that looks like it is trying to create any type or borderless world taking sovereignty away from countries and the economist article this week has also raised more questions than has answered. Don't countries still need to cooperate ? even if it's to send immigrants back rather than throwing them in detention centres to go mad and commit suicide.
From UN
The Global Compact for Migration is the first-ever UN global agreement on a common approach to international migration in all its dimensions. The global compact is non-legally binding. It is grounded in values of state sovereignty, responsibility-sharing, non-discrimination, and human rights, and recognizes that a cooperative approach is needed to optimize the overall benefits of migration, while addressing its risks and challenges for individuals and communities in countries of origin, transit and destination.
As i say Im confused and don't know whether to believe the Right wing conspiracy theorists or the left wing conspiracy theorists.
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by mem » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am

I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:31 am

besides the crazy broad nature of that agreement, what stands out me is the commitments of countries to pass legislation that essentialy eliminates "illegal" immigration by decriminalizing it, not stopping it. all immigration becomes "regular" immigration, and people emmigrating for economic reasons get's elevated to the same legal and rights status as refugies; but further to thatt of a citizen or "legal" resident.


if there are no penalties, then anyone can cross a boarder without restriction to any country.

if a country can not say who and who can not be in the their territory, right of sovernity and citizenship become meaningless.

no point in having passports, passport control, and even the very constitutional definitions of citizen and country become rather meaningless. territory is a fundemental defining feature of a country. who is or is not a citizen also.

for example, the u.s. constitution. Most americans even fail to understand this, starts by asserting the first right in the first three words "We the people...". it is a statement about where the authority for this contract is derived, and who are the parties to this contract. it is not a king. it is not a god. it is "...of the united states of america".

it has been upheld by the u.s. supreme court that the u.s. goverment can not unilateraly cancel that rights (e.g. citizenship) contained in those first three words.

do we now wave our right to the authority of the u.n.? how about to the excutive branch of the u.s. goverment, to determine who is and is not an american citizen, as covered in later clauses of the constitution? how about the authority of "we the people" to elect congress, to set immigration law, etc?

because in the same way that trump can loose in court, over racist statments he made on the campaign trail about muslim immigrants, that compact has at least administrative executive force as an official u.s. goverment position. same along the lines as those "inter govermental agreements" the u.s. forced on other countries regarding tax information reporting.

i suspect, at least most common law countries, are opening a similar can of worms with it.

in the case of chile, with it's 5 years of residency to vote and become a citizen, there is a real danger of loss of sovereignty.

what happens if say 10 million, 20 million (just a small city in china), or even 50 million chinese move to chile all at once? in 5 to 10 years, any native born chilean has lost any even kind of influence over the direction of the country. chile can not give up control of who get's their foot un door, exactly because it is so permisive and welcoming to new migrants once they are here.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:34 am

mem wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am
I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)
he is a silent member of the forum.

(yea, i see your network adress block from the moneda in the middle of the night). :lol:
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
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From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

at46
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by at46 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:40 am

mem wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:06 am
I thought it was a lost cause considering they are signing it today!
First country in south America!

Chilean aren't late just to parties and appointments lol
I wonder if they waited until the last minute on purpose?

Switzerland already opted out a week or two ago I believe.

Ok, who called Pinera and had a heart to heart with him? Fess up! :)
Pinera actually voiced his concern back in September during his US visit when he brought up the issue of brain drain out of Haiti. Of course, Chile would have still signed up had it not been for the great winds of change that he must have felt at G20.

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