What would you want with land in Chile ?

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at46
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by at46 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 pm

41southchile wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm
fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:19 pm
Gloria wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:28 pm
What about cleaner heating source together with insulation? That would be the "cat's pijamas".
Like what, exactly? Imported gas is expensive. Electricity with that winter sobreconsumo surcharge is even worse, even if the pathetic electricity grid that exists in most places could handle the extra load.

And to insulate one of those ramshackle wooden houses would cost more than the house is worth.

If I lived in Coyhaique (perish the thought!) I would be burning wood like the rest. But at least I would buy the dry stuff.

http://www.revistaei.cl/2018/06/05/ayse ... aminacion/#
Soooo? Do nothing then ?
They could get some thermal leak detectors (36 bucks on Amazon, shipping and duties included https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-TLD ... B0044R87BE) and get property appraisers produce a quick report for every property that they appraise. Then they should give owners a simple property tax rebate for a percentage improvement in insulation.

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fraggle092
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm

41southchile wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Soooo? Do nothing then ?
Do exactly what then?
at46 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 pm
They could get some thermal leak detectors (36 bucks on Amazon, shipping and duties included
Most can't, at least not directly, even if they wanted to. Somehow I think the realities of living here, as experienced by the majority, escape you.

Gloria had the sense to properly insulate, but most can't or won't. Even in high-end construction, insulation is often skimped, or is simply non existent. Despite all the eco talk, Chileans will not pay for an invisible benefit like insulation that as well as cutting heating costs would also help reduce contamination and also deforestation, preferring the lazy wasteful alternative - cutting down trees and burning huge amounts of wet wood to heat their draughty uninsulated rucas.

Even in well-off communities, like Las Condes, wood burning is a problem. One report states that half of Santiago's smog problem is caused by wood stoves.
¿Sabía usted que Las Condes es una de las comunas del Gran Santiago donde más leña se consume al año? En total, más de seis millones de kilos.
..tres comunas mayoritariamente ricas están generando una buena parte de la contaminación más grave de Santiago y, para colmo, la geografía se encarga de llevarse la cochinada a las comunas más pobres.
Es la leña, estúpido

My point is that nothing's going to change, despite all the talk. I've been hearing it for 20-odd years now.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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41southchile
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:19 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm
41southchile wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Soooo? Do nothing then ?
Do exactly what then?
at46 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 pm
They could get some thermal leak detectors (36 bucks on Amazon, shipping and duties included
Most can't, at least not directly, even if they wanted to. Somehow I think the realities of living here, as experienced by the majority, escape you.

Gloria had enough sense to properly insulate, but most can't or won't. Even in high-end construction, insulation is often skimped, or is simply non existent. Despite all the eco talk, Chileans will not pay for an invisible benefit like insulation that as well as cutting heating costs would also help reduce contamination and also deforestation, preferring the lazy alternative - cutting down trees and burning huge amounts of wet wood to heat their draughty uninsulated rucas.

Even in well-off communities, like Las Condes, wood burning is a problem. One report states that half of Santiago's smog problem is caused by wood burning.
¿Sabía usted que Las Condes es una de las comunas del Gran Santiago donde más leña se consume al año? En total, más de seis millones de kilos.
Es la leña, estúpido

My point is that nothing's going to change, despite all the talk. I've been hearing it for 20-odd years now.
So now it's only Chileans that burn Wood ? One thing I learnt from you last week was that the same shit happens everywhere, nothing is unique to Chile.
Cities in NZ have been battling with wood burning and contamination and wondering what to do since the mid to 90s and restrictions are still not in effect in many urban areas, I think some of the earliest come in 2020. I can't speak for other countries but a brief search online tells me it's an issue in many countries.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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41southchile
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:24 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm
41southchile wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Soooo? Do nothing then ?
Do exactly what then?
at46 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 pm
They could get some thermal leak detectors (36 bucks on Amazon, shipping and duties included
Most can't, at least not directly, even if they wanted to. Somehow I think the realities of living here, as experienced by the majority, escape you.

Gloria had the sense to properly insulate, but most can't or won't. Even in high-end construction, insulation is often skimped, or is simply non existent. Despite all the eco talk, Chileans will not pay for an invisible benefit like insulation that as well as cutting heating costs would also help reduce contamination and also deforestation, preferring the lazy cheaper alternative - cutting down trees and burning huge amounts of wet wood to heat their draughty uninsulated rucas.

Even in well-off communities, like Las Condes, wood burning is a problem. One report states that half of Santiago's smog problem is caused by wood stoves.
¿Sabía usted que Las Condes es una de las comunas del Gran Santiago donde más leña se consume al año? En total, más de seis millones de kilos.
..tres comunas mayoritariamente ricas están generando una buena parte de la contaminación más grave de Santiago y, para colmo, la geografía se encarga de llevarse la cochinada a las comunas más pobres.
Es la leña, estúpido

My point is that nothing's going to change, despite all the talk. I've been hearing it for 20-odd years now.
Sorry my mistake I confused you with someone else, well you do both begin with F, but yeah the point still applies, but thanks for speaking on behalf of every Chilean.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

at46
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by at46 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:26 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm
41southchile wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:37 pm
Soooo? Do nothing then ?
Do exactly what then?
at46 wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:49 pm
They could get some thermal leak detectors (36 bucks on Amazon, shipping and duties included
Most can't, at least not directly, even if they wanted to. Somehow I think the realities of living here, as experienced by the majority, escape you.

Gloria had enough sense to properly insulate, but most can't or won't. Even in high-end construction, insulation is often skimped, or is simply non existent. Despite all the eco talk, Chileans will not pay for an invisible benefit like insulation that as well as cutting heating costs would also help reduce contamination and also deforestation, preferring the lazy cheaper alternative - cutting down trees and burning huge amounts of wet wood to heat their draughty uninsulated rucas.

Even in well-off communities, like Las Condes, wood burning is a problem. One report states that half of Santiago's smog problem is caused by wood stoves.
¿Sabía usted que Las Condes es una de las comunas del Gran Santiago donde más leña se consume al año? En total, más de seis millones de kilos.
Es la leña, estúpido

My point is that nothing's going to change, despite all the talk. I've been hearing it for 20-odd years now.
I'm not talking about people buying thermal leak detectors directly, but the government setting up a rebate program, like what some municipalities in Canada did a few years ago to upgrade toilets for more efficient ones. All you had to do is buy one, mail the receipt to the muni and get your 50 bucks rebate check. It didn't cover the entire cost of a new toilet and installation, obviously, but, together with a potentially lower water bill, was enough of an incentive (for some anyway). What I think could work here is the property appraiser doing an evaluation with a government provided thermal leak detector and the government then lowering property taxes for a percentage of the insulation work carried out by the homeowner.

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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 am

Coima city dude!
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

at46
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by at46 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:41 am

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 am
Coima city dude!
And how many years do you have living in Chile then? :) Seriously though, I think it's just a matter of setting up the program properly. Chilean Revision Tecnica comes to mind as an example of a properly set up program. It can be done.

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fraggle092
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 am

41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:19 am
So now it's only Chileans that burn Wood ? One thing I learnt from you last week was that the same shit happens everywhere, nothing is unique to Chile.
Cities in NZ have been battling with wood burning and contamination and wondering what to do since the mid to 90s and restrictions are still not in effect in many urban areas, I think some of the earliest come in 2020. I can't speak for other countries but a brief search online tells me it's an issue in many countries.
I never said that it was specifically a Chilean problem, I am sure it isn't. Think you're mixing me up with the other F again. But with the exception of wood, Chile is energy-poor. (Magallanes has gas, but they keep it for consumption down there) Desertification where I live in the North, and deforestation in the South are the results of indiscriminate tree felling over the last 150 years. But what is the alternative after the wishful thinking is discounted ?
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:24 am
thanks for speaking on behalf of every Chilean.
I am not speakling on behalf of anybody. Just how I see things. Take it or leave it.
eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 am
Coima city dude!
Ain't that the truth!
at46 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:41 am
And how many years do you have living in Chile then? :) Seriously though, I think it's just a matter of setting up the program properly. Chilean Revision Tecnica comes to mind as an example of a properly set up program. It can be done.
Well....like everything else here the Revisión Técnica depends on who you know....
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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41southchile
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:08 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 am
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:19 am
So now it's only Chileans that burn Wood ? One thing I learnt from you last week was that the same shit happens everywhere, nothing is unique to Chile.
Cities in NZ have been battling with wood burning and contamination and wondering what to do since the mid to 90s and restrictions are still not in effect in many urban areas, I think some of the earliest come in 2020. I can't speak for other countries but a brief search online tells me it's an issue in many countries.
I never said that it was specifically a Chilean problem, I am sure it isn't. But with the exception of wood, Chile is energy-poor. (Magallanes has gas, but they keep it for consumption down there) Desertification where I live in the North, and deforestation in the South are the results of indiscriminate tree felling over the last 150 years. But what is the alternative after the wishful thinking is discounted ?
eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:29 am
Coima city dude!
Ain't that the truth!
at46 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:41 am
And how many years do you have living in Chile then? :) Seriously though, I think it's just a matter of setting up the program properly. Chilean Revision Tecnica comes to mind as an example of a properly set up program. It can be done.
Well....like everything else here the Revisión Técnica depends on who you know....
If you provide an incentive people will insulate, if it's going to save them money they will do it, people like saving money. You don't have to insulate every single house either, at least start with low hanging fruit, once people cotton on that their neighbours got a grant or loan to insulate and they are spending 50 percent less on firewood it won't take long for people to do it. It's like agriculture subsididids they had when I was dairy farming here a few years ago, they subsidised new seeds and fertilizer to those with poor quality soil, people take free things or things that are easy to pay off if it will save them money, (the health benefits are just an added bonus for them as a lot of them probably don't think about it or make the correlation) . As for energy supply Vaca muerte just over the Andes from the 8th region, has enough gas to keep most of Chile and Argentina in gas for our lifetimes by some estimates.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:14 am

You are aware of what happened in Aysén with the $100.000 annual bono doled out by the government to allow the needy to buy dry wood?

http://www.revistaei.cl/2018/06/05/ayse ... aminacion/
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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41southchile
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:22 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 am

I am not speakling on behalf of anybody. Just how I see things. Take it or leave it.

I think I'll just leave it then, but I know plenty of Chileans that have invested in double glazing and insulation, that's not just how I see it , it's how it is , and they don't really speak any eco talk either, they just do stuff. Guess that's why the country functions reasonably well, nothing is perfect, but it's shit load more advanced than a lot of other countries on many levels, because there are plenty of people that make things happen, despite the ammount of people that can't be arsed doing anything for themselves, it's actually surprising how well shit does work when you see what you are working with.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

at46
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Re: What would you want with land in Chile ?

Post by at46 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:42 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 am
Well....like everything else here the Revisión Técnica depends on who you know....
I see fewer cars with plumes of smoke behind them here than in Canada. Cars generally seem to be in a better state of maintenance here, and I think that's only thanks to better revision tecnica. In Canada they only check exhaust, but here they also check the shocks, breaks/tires and lights.

As to insulation, I've noticed greater use of thermopanels in new apartment blocks just over the last few years. So one easy way to improve energy efficiency would be to mandate thermopanels for all new construction in Chile in areas with a certain winter temperature range. The build cost differential is probably not that big as it is between single pane vs. thermopanel, and will get smaller with greater volume.

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