Araucania (again, still) (and justice system failures)

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41southchile
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Araucania (again, still) (and justice system failures)

Post by 41southchile » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:26 am

So in the last week a train has been derailed by being blown off the tracks , multiple trucks attacked and destroyed by burning, multiple municipal buildings been burnt and destroyed, in Araucanía.
Yet you would think by skimming through Chilean media a fucking huge explosion in Beirut is more relevant to the country right now.
I know the msm media is shit and has an agenda and 90 percent of the Chilean journalists are lazy as crap and dont do any real investigating, but it would be interesting to see a bit more analysis or investigative (not unbias stuff like prensalatina or right wing stuff) reporting on the latest particulary violent developments in Araucania. Anyone found any good sources? I'm going to see what I can find today , because last few days the reporting has very wanting .
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by admin » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 am

I have been saying for years, governments never ever win against the Indigenous groups unless they are prepared to engage in full on genocide (and they better get them all). From north america to central America to south America.

simply, they are not going to go away. It is not a 'negotiate a deal, and they will go away' kind of problem.

The problem every single chilean administration is the total inability to get over their inherent racism (and centralism) that pervades both the left and the right in chile in dealing with the indigenous. They are not a political party.

so, we end-up year after year with same crap result. They try some half-baked sultion. it blows up in the their face. then the government tries to ignore them.
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by 41southchile » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:17 pm

admin wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 am
I have been saying for years, governments never ever win against the Indigenous groups unless they are prepared to engage in full on genocide (and they better get them all). From north america to central America to south America.

simply, they are not going to go away. It is not a 'negotiate a deal, and they will go away' kind of problem.

The problem every single chilean administration is the total inability to get over their inherent racism (and centralism) that pervades both the left and the right in chile in dealing with the indigenous. They are not a political party.

so, we end-up year after year with same crap result. They try some half-baked sultion. it blows up in the their face. then the government tries to ignore them.
Yeah its interesting, and its certainly a rinse and repeat cycle here in Chile .

I guess those problems you mention (racism, centralism, I'd add classism and elitism, ) with every single Chilean administration has also lead to their inability to resolve many other long standing issues in the country .
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:55 pm

I have always thought that most Chileans, including the Government, are a bit like Ostriches on this issue, burying their heads in the sand and hoping the violence will go away. But it won't, it's escalating.

This Twitter site is worth a look to see the amount of mayhem going on - stuff that usually hardly gets national news coverage.

And the issue has been politicized to the hilt with at least the tacit approval of the Opposition. All grist to their mill in the attempt to bring down the system.

Here's Fernando Villegas' take on the reaction of PS narcopolitico Álvaro Elizalde towards the recent revolt where some of the local Mapuches actually attacked the CAM thugs and their vehicles. It seems that they are fed up with suffering this anarchy and violence , and took law enforcement into their own hands for a change, given the notoriously passive nature of the official forces.

Elizalde condemned this particular action, but he, like all the Opposition, has been conspicuously silent about the many terrorist acts perpetrated over the last few years in the Araucanía by his ideologically compatible compinches.
And the government's response has been underwhelming - as usual, its scared of provoking another estallido social. Pathetic.

There is so much destabilization activity and outright criminality going on right now in this country, that it almost defies belief - unless you take the time to find out about it.
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by admin » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:19 pm

I will provide my stock solution to the problem:

CASINOS FOR EVERYBODY!!!

It sounds like I am making light of the whole situation, but in that one idea is wrapped-up a whole lot of solutions.

I went school on an indian reservation in the united states for a couple of years, right as indian tribes gained the right to build casinos.

In fact my father's best friend and law partner was involved in the case that ultimately lead to the supreme court rulings that recognized the right of tribes to build casinos (very long story).

but, once the tribes got casinos, they got economic power. They built schools, including the one I went to for free (as a none-indian). They opened clinics, provided jobs (for natives and none-natives), etc, etc. The school principle told me in eighth grade, if I hung around and graduated from that school they would send me to any university I wanted with a full ride scholarship, simply because I graduated from the school. Did not matter I was white. They had more scholarships than kids. It was in their charter, and backed by casino money.

Once they had economic power, they got a lot of political power. Local none tribal towns, cities, states started paying attention to their needs. national politicians started paying attention to them, because they wanted their support. They were able to support indian politicians, hire lobbying firms, etc, etc. suddenly, they had power.

Most importantly, once they seen what they could do with the courts, they funded law suits all over the united states to take on the government over other things. They stopped shooting at the government, and started suing them; and they won. a lot. The head of American Indian Movement at one point admitted that once they started taking the government to court, they started making a lot more progress.

That brings me to the "everyone" part of this solution.

The fundemental problem with chile, referring to the general social protests and riots, is the courts in Chile are fundementally broken and useless.

It is extremely expensive and slow, even for me, to sue an individual or a company. Even if you win, very rarely is anyone 'made whole' by the remidies offered by the courts. Even legal fees are capped. If you want to sue someone, you are funding it out of your own pocket almost exclusively. The awards are for real damages. there are no punitive damages in chile. There is no functioning class action lawsuits (there is a totally toothless one).

The fundemental problem with Chile is there is no way for individuals or minorities (speaking of a class, not a race here), to enforce their rights under the law.

so everyone thinks the constitution is broken. yea, it probably needs to be cleaned-up, not the finest piece of political writing, but the fundemental rights and promises listed in it are not bad.

Just there is no way to enforce them. There is no way to collect.

Thus, if the constitution contains a right to two unicorns and a rainbow everyday, and the government does not deliver, without a functioning court system it means nothing.

That is not an accident. That is a continuation of Roman and Spanish law traditions, where emperor and king are always protected and the surfs and slaves don't get to play.
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by 41southchile » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:07 am

admin wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:19 pm
I will provide my stock solution to the problem:

CASINOS FOR EVERYBODY!!!

It sounds like I am making light of the whole situation, but in that one idea is wrapped-up a whole lot of solutions.

I went school on an indian reservation in the united states for a couple of years, right as indian tribes gained the right to build casinos.

In fact my father's best friend and law partner was involved in the case that ultimately lead to the supreme court rulings that recognized the right of tribes to build casinos (very long story).

but, once the tribes got casinos, they got economic power. They built schools, including the one I went to for free (as a none-indian). They opened clinics, provided jobs (for natives and none-natives), etc, etc. The school principle told me in eighth grade, if I hung around and graduated from that school they would send me to any university I wanted with a full ride scholarship, simply because I graduated from the school. Did not matter I was white. They had more scholarships than kids. It was in their charter, and backed by casino money.

Once they had economic power, they got a lot of political power. Local none tribal towns, cities, states started paying attention to their needs. national politicians started paying attention to them, because they wanted their support. They were able to support indian politicians, hire lobbying firms, etc, etc. suddenly, they had power.

Most importantly, once they seen what they could do with the courts, they funded law suits all over the united states to take on the government over other things. They stopped shooting at the government, and started suing them; and they won. a lot. The head of American Indian Movement at one point admitted that once they started taking the government to court, they started making a lot more progress.

That brings me to the "everyone" part of this solution.

The fundemental problem with chile, referring to the general social protests and riots, is the courts in Chile are fundementally broken and useless.

It is extremely expensive and slow, even for me, to sue an individual or a company. Even if you win, very rarely is anyone 'made whole' by the remidies offered by the courts. Even legal fees are capped. If you want to sue someone, you are funding it out of your own pocket almost exclusively. The awards are for real damages. there are no punitive damages in chile. There is no functioning class action lawsuits (there is a totally toothless one).

The fundemental problem with Chile is there is no way for individuals or minorities (speaking of a class, not a race here), to enforce their rights under the law.

so everyone thinks the constitution is broken. yea, it probably needs to be cleaned-up, not the finest piece of political writing, but the fundemental rights and promises listed in it are not bad.

Just there is no way to enforce them. There is no way to collect.

Thus, if the constitution contains a right to two unicorns and a rainbow everyday, and the government does not deliver, without a functioning court system it means nothing.

That is not an accident. That is a continuation of Roman and Spanish law traditions, where emperor and king are always protected and the surfs and slaves don't get to play.
Yeah I was just talking to someone yesterday about the very gringo solution of Casinos, one that I dont think would work in many other places, but an interesting solution .

The point of the courts and (I imagine then entire justice system) being broken is one that has been raised here a few times, I think by you.

It makes sense what you say , however the 64 thousand peso question then is, "is there any sense spending energy thinking about this situation?"
When so many people in society are too lazy and can't be arsed questioning or thinking about anything, and let their emotions control them, all it takes is a brain to question things , why or how etc, everyone's still got one of those haven't they?
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by admin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:26 am

The casino is more of a metaphore for economic independence, but that started because the indians were able to go to court and win recognition that the u.s. government was just a renter, and the actual land owners were the tribes that entered in to the treaties.

Most of the treaties with the tribes specifically retain the rights to the fruits of the land and the ability to self-governance, among other things.

but, the big point is, the whole point to having a court system is to stop disputes in society degenerating in to a bunch of cavemen beating each other over the head. Typically where there is low confidence in the judicial system, protests, chaos, and revolution follows.

I might point out the United States has spent the last 20 to 30 years pulling the teeth from the judicial system. How is that working out?

Now, the Republicans are trying to completely close the courts, providing blanket lawsuit immunity to companies, government, hospitals, etc since the pandemic started.

Bad, bad things will follow.
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by 41southchile » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:41 am

admin wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:26 am
The casino is more of a metaphore for economic independence, but that started because the indians were able to go to court and win recognition that the u.s. government was just a renter, and the actual land owners were the tribes that entered in to the treaties.

Most of the treaties with the tribes specifically retain the rights to the fruits of the land and the ability to self-governance, among other things.

but, the big point is, the whole point to having a court system is to stop disputes in society degenerating in to a bunch of cavemen beating each other over the head. Typically where there is low confidence in the judicial system, protests, chaos, and revolution follows.

I might point out the United States has spent the last 20 to 30 years pulling the teeth from the judicial system. How is that working out?

Now, the Republicans are trying to completely close the courts, providing blanket lawsuit immunity to companies, government, hospitals, etc since the pandemic started.

Bad, bad things will follow.
"Most of the treaties with the tribes specifically retain the rights to the fruits of the land and the ability to self-governance, among other things."

Yes , its what they did in NZ too, to a certain degree, it's been a long process, last 40 years or so, and they are still not finished, it's still a work in progress (that shit doesn't get fixed in a few months or years) at least it provides a path forward.

"but, the big point is, the whole point to having a court system is to stop disputes in society degenerating in to a bunch of cavemen beating each other over the head. Typically where there is low confidence in the judicial system, protests, chaos, and revolution follows. "

So pretty much exactly what we are seeing now in Chile and Araucanía in particular?
German desended farmers and business people beating the shit out of Mapuches who were in a sit in in the municipal buildings with the tacit approval of the police. Then the Mapuche went on more violent attacks.
That's how it went down didn't it? And as you say ultimately due to low confidence, from all sides, in the Chilean judicial system.

So what you are saying is basically there is no way out of any if this untill there is a strong justice system?
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by ghibli » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:48 pm

Haven't posted for a while, but here goes: To 41 southchile. Admin is exactly right, both in chile and for native americans. In usa, once the tribes gained any kind of financial power, things got better and they could go to court and often receive a fair hearing and a fair result. It didn't need to be casinos. For example, the Navajo Nation discovered coal on their territory, built a power plant and started to sell electricity. Unfortunately the rule of law is being rolled back in usa leading to such ugly things as civil asset forfeiture.

There are many admirable things about chile and chilenos, but the total failure of the court system is a disaster. There is no real recourse.
I've been there personally and have friends who have as well. If you are injured, if your auto is damaged, your pet killed, your house robbed,
even if you know exactly who are the culprits, there is no effective way to be reimbursed. The carabineros can't/won't help you. You can go to a judge, at your own expense, to plead your case. Even if you win and the judge awards damages, the criminal may not pay you. There
exists a certain group of malditos who know this is true and therefore keep on with whatever molestia strikes their fancy. Until this is fixed, I can only foresee an ongoing scenario of violence. The Mapuche are sort of double cursed. Bachelet had the chance to do something, but didn't. She got her nice juicy UN post in exchange one suspects.

I don't know if a new constitution will correct this. Opinions anyone?

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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by 41southchile » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:08 pm

ghibli wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:48 pm
Haven't posted for a while, but here goes: To 41 southchile. Admin is exactly right, both in chile and for native americans. In usa, once the tribes gained any kind of financial power, things got better and they could go to court and often receive a fair hearing and a fair result. It didn't need to be casinos. For example, the Navajo Nation discovered coal on their territory, built a power plant and started to sell electricity. Unfortunately the rule of law is being rolled back in usa leading to such ugly things as civil asset forfeiture.

There are many admirable things about chile and chilenos, but the total failure of the court system is a disaster. There is no real recourse.
I've been there personally and have friends who have as well. If you are injured, if your auto is damaged, your pet killed, your house robbed,
even if you know exactly who are the culprits, there is no effective way to be reimbursed. The carabineros can't/won't help you. You can go to a judge, at your own expense, to plead your case. Even if you win and the judge awards damages, the criminal may not pay you. There
exists a certain group of malditos who know this is true and therefore keep on with whatever molestia strikes their fancy. Until this is fixed, I can only foresee an ongoing scenario of violence. The Mapuche are sort of double cursed. Bachelet had the chance to do something, but didn't. She got her nice juicy UN post in exchange one suspects.

I don't know if a new constitution will correct this. Opinions anyone?
Thanks for the reply, that's very unfortunate about the rule of law being rolled back in the USA.
Fairly bleak scenario overall then in USa and Chile?
Totally correct on what you say, so playing round with the constitution will do nothing then? Or at least not until the judicial structure is changed/fixed.
Why aren't more Chileans aware of this, or no one I talk to is at least? Mind you I dont hang out with many lawyers, everyone has stories about the judicial system here, but yeah come to mention it they do.
But never in a sense that that is a priority over a brand new constitution. Has the judicial system ever worked effectively here then? Guess not, just like Admin says Roman Spanish law traditions.
Yeah it makes more sense now.
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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:42 pm

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Re: Araucania (again, still)

Post by admin » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:50 pm

41southchile wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:08 pm
ghibli wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:48 pm
Haven't posted for a while, but here goes: To 41 southchile. Admin is exactly right, both in chile and for native americans. In usa, once the tribes gained any kind of financial power, things got better and they could go to court and often receive a fair hearing and a fair result. It didn't need to be casinos. For example, the Navajo Nation discovered coal on their territory, built a power plant and started to sell electricity. Unfortunately the rule of law is being rolled back in usa leading to such ugly things as civil asset forfeiture.

There are many admirable things about chile and chilenos, but the total failure of the court system is a disaster. There is no real recourse.
I've been there personally and have friends who have as well. If you are injured, if your auto is damaged, your pet killed, your house robbed,
even if you know exactly who are the culprits, there is no effective way to be reimbursed. The carabineros can't/won't help you. You can go to a judge, at your own expense, to plead your case. Even if you win and the judge awards damages, the criminal may not pay you. There
exists a certain group of malditos who know this is true and therefore keep on with whatever molestia strikes their fancy. Until this is fixed, I can only foresee an ongoing scenario of violence. The Mapuche are sort of double cursed. Bachelet had the chance to do something, but didn't. She got her nice juicy UN post in exchange one suspects.

I don't know if a new constitution will correct this. Opinions anyone?
Thanks for the reply, that's very unfortunate about the rule of law being rolled back in the USA.
Fairly bleak scenario overall then in USa and Chile?
Totally correct on what you say, so playing round with the constitution will do nothing then? Or at least not until the judicial structure is changed/fixed.
Why aren't more Chileans aware of this, or no one I talk to is at least? Mind you I dont hang out with many lawyers, everyone has stories about the judicial system here, but yeah come to mention it they do.
But never in a sense that that is a priority over a brand new constitution. Has the judicial system ever worked effectively here then? Guess not, just like Admin says Roman Spanish law traditions.
Yeah it makes more sense now.
Saludos
Every chilean is a legal expert. Just ask them. :lol:

They all think by virtue of being born with a RUT number they know how Chile works. I have a whole forum full of shockingly stupid things I have heard from real estate agents, bankers, pocos, notaries, government officials, etc, about the law in Chile.

The terrifying thing is at least 50% of them that went to law school don't know shit about the law either (being generous here, it is probably higher).

I once sat in on a bar examine at a law school. They are partially done by a oral exam here, with a panel of professors. Like one student after another was asked softball questions about the law, and one after another choked on the answers. My wife was sitting next to me in the gallery, and I leaned over and asked her, "why do I know the answers to these questions, and the law students don't"?

All graduated. All were above average.

We quit hiring from that school, not even as interns.
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