The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

National Crisis, Emergencies, and Natural Disasters in Chile; including the experiences of Chile Forum Members have shared in current and in past crisis, as they have assisted each other and Chile. Things will always go wrong. It is how you deal with it that counts, and that starts with information. When things go wrong, this is the place to come to exchange information about what is going on in Chile.
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hlf2888
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by hlf2888 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:38 pm

picture was rightside up when I sent it,even sent upside down, same result

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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by admin » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:00 pm

hlf2888 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:38 pm
picture was rightside up when I sent it,even sent upside down, same result
yea there is a bug in the forum, that seems to rotate the photo when uploaded from certain types of phones / computers.

i have to resize the photo, to get it upload right side up. thought it was just my phone.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by hlf2888 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:43 pm

thanks, not an important photo, just 4 of the dogs sleeping and dreaming of all the rabbits on the other side of the new fence.

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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by admin » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:43 am

well, back to the none-rabbit based economy.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Economia/ ... astos.html

seems 52% of chileans have reduced there spendin in half.

interesting people say they are going to reduce Christmas spending nor vacation spending.

however, I have my doubts about that. might simply be too far away.

people do seem upbeat that things will settle down.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by admin » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:38 am

the unemployment estimates are holding steady between 80,000 and 300,000.


https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/eco ... 2019.shtml

dec is the next reading.

I still doubt that number, and there might be some seasonal distortions.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by Britkid » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:24 am

Yes, vitamin B12 is very low on vegan/plant-based diets. Then again, I have low cholesterol, so it probably evens out! Actually I don't have low B12 because I take a supplement once a week, which vegans probably should do as it's just easier and more reliable than trying other ways to get sufficient B12 on a vegan diet. However, what many people don't know is that they give B12 supplements to animal feed anyway (so meat eaters are relying on supplements anyway indirectly), and also we only get B12 in animal products because animals eat dirty food (B12 comes from bacteria).

Also, as people get older they lose the ability to retain B12, people in their 60s and especially 70s and 80s+ should consider supplementing even if they eat meat.

I wrote a very short guide to vegan nutrition (under 5 mins to read). My belief is that if you started a vegan or mostly vegan diet based on nothing but this guide you would probably be on average just as healthy as before: https://whytryveg.wordpress.com/2017/03 ... nutrition/

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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:17 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:24 am
Yes, vitamin B12 is very low on vegan/plant-based diets.
According to what I've read, a strictly vegan diet has no b12. I haven't done the research myself, but it's consistent with my personal experience. I also read that you might get some b12 from a vegan diet, if you don't wash all the bugs off your fruits and vegetables. But I don't have any personal experience with that.
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:24 am
Then again, I have low cholesterol, so it probably evens out!
Your body will do the best it can to compensate for low b12. But there are a lot of processes that just won't work without it. There's no known substitute. For example, your body periodically replaces old myelin around your nerves with new myelin. Myelin is like insulation on electrical wires. Without b12, it will still remove the old myelin, but it can't replace it with new myelin. So your nerves will end up like bare electrical wires, and you'll get a lot of mixed up signals.

According to wikipedia, cholesterol is also needed for myelin:
Cholesterol is a necessary nutrient for the myelin sheath, along with vitamin B12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myelin

Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:24 am
Actually I don't have low B12 because I take a supplement once a week, which vegans probably should do as it's just easier and more reliable than trying other ways to get sufficient B12 on a vegan diet.
How much b12 is in your supplement? If I remember correctly, a typical supplement will replace approximately what you lose in 1 day, assuming you're absorbing b12 normally. So supplementing once a week will only postpone the problem a little longer.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by Britkid » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:12 pm

A vegan diet does still have some B12 because B12 gets added to some foods like breakfast cereals and other processed foods. However the amounts added are often not very large so you shouldn't rely on this kind of thing as a vegan. There is also some B12 in seaweed and algae which I believe are the only natural, unprocessed vegan foods with significant amounts of B12, however I don't know much about this. But the amounts are considered variable and unreliable. If you only include natural, whole foods, and exclude seaweed and algae, then it may be true that other vegan foods have no B12 at all, actually zero or very close. If you are interested in this, you can read here:https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12-plant-foods/

I take a 5000 micrograms supplement once a week. When I started the new diet, I did a bunch of blood tests while in transition and then some a year later. My B12 number was 382 pg/ML and a year later it was 614 pg/mL (after supplementing for a year). Both numbers are fine.

My cholesterol actually increased very slightly after a year on a vegan diet. The body can produce its own cholesterol to meet its needs, so not eating any at all is not a problem.

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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by thisisreallycomplicated » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:19 pm

This b12 discussion is getting off-topic. But I think it's important to know that highly stressful situations can deplete your body's supply of b12 (and other nutrients), much faster than normal (it's what happened to me). So if all this chaos is stressing you out, and your b12 is already marginal, you might want to start supplementing.
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:12 pm
A vegan diet does still have some B12 because B12 gets added to some foods like breakfast cereals and other processed foods. However the amounts added are often not very large so you shouldn't rely on this kind of thing as a vegan.
One important thing I learned, is that Chile doesn't add the same things to processed foods as the US does. And the same might be true for other countries. So you need to keep that in mind, if you rely on vitamins, minerals, etc. added to processed foods. You might think you're getting the same nutrition in Chile, because you think you're eating the same thing. But nutritionally it could be significantly different.
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:12 pm
There is also some B12 in seaweed and algae which I believe are the only natural, unprocessed vegan foods with significant amounts of B12, however I don't know much about this. But the amounts are considered variable and unreliable.
Be careful with seaweed and algae. The "b12" could be analogues, and do you more harm than good

"Vitamin B12 in Algae: Spirulina, Chlorella and Nori"
https://www.b12-vitamin.com/algae/
Vitamin B12 analogues are so similar to the real vitamin that conventional B12 tests cannot differentiate between them; only complex test procedures can make a clear distinction. Over the years, this has led to much confusion regarding plant sources of B12, as analogues have often been falsely identified as vitamin B12.

When assessing a source of B12, it is always important to keep in mind the relationship between vitamin B12 and analogues. In order to ensure a positive health effect, sources should ideally only contain real vitamin B12. At the very least, the content of genuine B12 should be significantly higher than that of analogues.

However, if the content of real B12 is outbalanced by a high content of analogues, B12 deficiency will worsen. This is because the analogues occupy all the transport molecules and thus ensure that the body can no longer utilise the real vitamin.
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:12 pm
I take a 5000 micrograms supplement once a week. When I started the new diet, I did a bunch of blood tests while in transition and then some a year later. My B12 number was 382 pg/ML and a year later it was 614 pg/mL (after supplementing for a year). Both numbers are fine.
If you can process b12 normally, 5000 mcg per week is probably good. But b12 blood tests are unreliable. This article explains some of the problems:

"Serum B12 Levels are Not Reliable"
https://veganhealth.org/serum-b12-levels/
Summary

A serum B12 level below the normal range indicates that B12 levels are becoming depleted. However, as described below, a serum B12 level in the normal range does not ensure that B12 levels are healthy. Unfortunately, medical practitioners still use serum B12 to evaluate function, even of vegans.

Seaweeds Falsely Inflate serum B12 Levels

Methods for determining serum B12 levels rarely, if ever, distinguish between B12 and all inactive B12 analogues. Seaweeds contain a variety of inactive B12 analogues. Someone who is eating large amounts of seaweed may have serum B12 levels well above normal, but much of it could be inactive B12 analogues that may actually be interfering with B12 function—see the section Inactive Analogues: Worse than Useless in Vitamin B12 Analogues.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by admin » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:33 am

o.k., people. everyone back on track. I did not mean to turn this in to a diet thread.

If you want to do a 'how to eat healthy during the zombie apocalypse' thread, start one; just let's stick to the major economics themes here.
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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by 41southchile » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:53 am

I went to drop some friends off at a hotel in Puerto Varas last night, we spent a while driving around, as they didn't have a reservation it was incredibly hard to find a place with two rooms, everything was packed, restaurants were packed and there were lots of people out, despite it being a grey drizzly Tuesday evening. I actually couldn't believe it in light of the current situation.
Spoke to a friend who owns a hostel, he said in the first week he was really worried as nearly everyone cancelled, now he says it's just like any other spring, only with less domestic tourists, but just as many foreigners as the last few years.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. - Darwin

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Re: The Economic Impact of the Social Crisis

Post by admin » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:09 am

41southchile wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:53 am
I went to drop some friends off at a hotel in Puerto Varas last night, we spent a while driving around, as they didn't have a reservation it was incredibly hard to find a place with two rooms, everything was packed, restaurants were packed and there were lots of people out, despite it being a grey drizzly Tuesday evening. I actually couldn't believe it in light of the current situation.
Spoke to a friend who owns a hostel, he said in the first week he was really worried as nearly everyone cancelled, now he says it's just like any other spring, only with less domestic tourists, but just as many foreigners as the last few years.
yea, we were touring around with some friends from the states, from pv to ensenda yesterday. stopped at the AWA hotel for lunch. suprising number of tourist everywhere, for a rainy day, off-season, and middle of the week.

I really think all the unrest is sort of herding tourist in to the places where nothing is really going on. frutillar and puerto varas have been packed all week. lots of tour buses, big and small, everywhere. long waits at the restaurants that are typically pretty empty this time of year.
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