The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

National Crisis, Emergencies, and Natural Disasters in Chile; including the experiences of Chile Forum Members have shared in current and in past crisis, as they have assisted each other and Chile. Things will always go wrong. It is how you deal with it that counts, and that starts with information. When things go wrong, this is the place to come to exchange information about what is going on in Chile.
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Jamers41
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by Jamers41 » Mon May 11, 2020 8:51 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 10:00 pm
OK, well that's 2 of you saying it was more the left that voted against the cut (and no-one disputing it), and you seem to know more about Chilean politics than me, and I can't be bothered to google and check all the names, so OK I'll accept that.

This whole saga of the 50% cut has been going on for too long and doing yet further damage to politician's reputation. They should have just done it by now.

Also, they ought to set up a new law the politician's salaries are not determined by politicians but by some other expert group.

If I got out a pen and paper and had to write down all the names of Chilean politicians I know I could probably do about 10.
That's actually the essence of the debate.......the left (not all, but many) voted against the reduction in the "dieta" because the law was stripped of the 50% decrease, so they accused the right (even though some centerleft also voted for it) of playing games and voting for a fake pay decrease. The right in turn accused the other side of the same thing, because the 50% pay cut was temporary and could be rolled back, while they instead passed a law not committing to any particular pay cut but giving the power to set their salaries to an independent agency (arguing that said agency should set wages for not just parlament members but many other government offices instead of just applying a blunt decrease in the same % terms to everybody). Neither side has mentioned the "asignaciones" (stipends or allotments) that pay many of their expenses, just their official salary.

This is more or less what I have seen about this until now (if someone has credible info with a source to say that I'm wrong or mixed up on any of the above, please feel free to say so).

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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by Britkid » Mon May 11, 2020 9:59 pm

gregf wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:54 pm
Does anyone have a good resource to point me towards to try to get up to speed on politics in Chile? Spanish sources are fine. I've been trying to read the news more thoroughly, but I miss the importance of a lot of it because I can't place names/parties/etc very well just yet. Sad, after living in Chile 10 years! But I lived like a hermit and worked remotely for US and EU companies all that time.
Ha - can totally relate. I have actually put some shortcuts on my browser to 4 Chilean news sites so I can prod myself to try and read Chilean more regularly as I tend to default to international news in English.

I went to our library last year and looked for a book explaining the political systems, but I couldn't find one. I didn't even realize my town had a library until last year.

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fraggle092
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by fraggle092 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:14 am

Jamers41 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:51 pm

That's actually the essence of the debate.......the left (not all, but many) voted against the reduction in the "dieta" because the law was stripped of the 50% decrease, so they accused the right (even though some centerleft also voted for it) of playing games and voting for a fake pay decrease. The right in turn accused the other side of the same thing, because the 50% pay cut was temporary and could be rolled back, while they instead passed a law not committing to any particular pay cut but giving the power to set their salaries to an independent agency (arguing that said agency should set wages for not just parlament members but many other government offices instead of just applying a blunt decrease in the same % terms to everybody). Neither side has mentioned the "asignaciones" (stipends or allotments) that pay many of their expenses, just their official salary.

This is more or less what I have seen about this until now (if someone has credible info with a source to say that I'm wrong or mixed up on any of the above, please feel free to say so).
Wow, I think mostly correct, I certainly don't have the patience to have followed six months of haggling in such gruesome detail. Which is sort of missing the point:

None of them actually want to take a pay cut, so they will prolong the negotiations in the hope that it will all get forgotten about in a few months. That's the underlying truth being obscured by the rhetoric. And the longer they put the decision off, the more money they get to keep! Yes, it's that simple.

Even the ostentatiously virtuous Giorgio Jackson who had supposedly "donated" half his dieta actually diverted it to a private political slush fund along with some other cronies. And yes, the assignations, which are worth more that the dieta, go untouched.

https://www.latercera.com/politica/noti ... le/220419/

Another cat meme:
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cuenta personal.jpg
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by admin » Tue May 12, 2020 8:29 pm

oooohhhhhh, the plot thickens.

Jackson stepped in it. member of the RN is calling for an investigation in to his violation of campaign finance laws and on donations limits.

Either he and the entire party is lying (Commi Camilla claimed something similar about her pay a long time ago), or they violated the campaign finance limits of 500 UF a year, no more than 30 UF per month.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... iento.html
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by admin » Tue May 12, 2020 8:33 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:59 pm
gregf wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:54 pm
Does anyone have a good resource to point me towards to try to get up to speed on politics in Chile? Spanish sources are fine. I've been trying to read the news more thoroughly, but I miss the importance of a lot of it because I can't place names/parties/etc very well just yet. Sad, after living in Chile 10 years! But I lived like a hermit and worked remotely for US and EU companies all that time.
Ha - can totally relate. I have actually put some shortcuts on my browser to 4 Chilean news sites so I can prod myself to try and read Chilean more regularly as I tend to default to international news in English.

I went to our library last year and looked for a book explaining the political systems, but I couldn't find one. I didn't even realize my town had a library until last year.
I can recommend a book to explain Chilean politics.

Did you ever read the book "Lord of the Flies"?

Well, Chilean politics is not that well organized. :lol: :shock:

I would recommend "Animal Farm", but that is too politically incorrect. It is simply not right to insult and discriminate against animals that way.

:lol:
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fraggle092
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by fraggle092 » Tue May 12, 2020 11:37 pm

Parliamentary salaries are only the tip of the iceberg. Maximo displayed a link from Portal Transparencia detailing the wages of around 1400 employees of the Municipality of Santiago..

For those unfamiliar with regular Chilean wages, they are very generous. And many of these functionaries also claim overtime as shown in the tables. As Maximo ironizes:
Podemos enterarnos de algunos cargos interesantes: Chofer, licencia media, 1.9 millones. Radio operador, octavo básico, 1.8 millones, un puesto que supongo podría cubrir sin problemas. ¡Atento, atento! ¡Atento, atento! Barredor, enseñanza básica, 1.4 millones. Aquí en la casa barro gratis bajo la atenta y exigente mirada de la patrona. Practica no me falta. Puedo pedir recomendaciones.
Who pays for it all? Businesses and residents within the Santiago municipal area. And eventually everyone else in Chile as well. Like most munis they have run up massive debts that will require a bailout sooner or later.

Won't find this stuff on the BBC. Or CNN.
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tiagoabner
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by tiagoabner » Wed May 13, 2020 12:22 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:37 pm
Parliamentary salaries are only the tip of the iceberg. Maximo displayed a link from Portal Transparencia detailing the wages of around 1400 employees of the Municipality of Santiago..

For those unfamiliar with regular Chilean wages, they are very generous. And many of these functionaries also claim overtime as shown in the tables. As Maximo says:
Podemos enterarnos de algunos cargos interesantes: Chofer, licencia media, 1.9 millones. Radio operador, octavo básico, 1.8 millones, un puesto que supongo podría cubrir sin problemas. ¡Atento, atento! ¡Atento, atento! Barredor, enseñanza básica, 1.4 millones. Aquí en la casa barro gratis bajo la atenta y exigente mirada de la patrona. Practica no me falta. Puedo pedir recomendaciones.
Who pays for it all? Businesses and residents within the Santiago municipal area. And eventually everyone else in Chile as well. Like most munis they have run up massive debts that will require a bailout sooner or later.

Won't find this stuff on the BBC. Or CNN.
Holy moly, public servants are overpaid as heck! I took a look at that government portal and salaries are way out of wack with what people earn in Chile.
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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41southchile
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by 41southchile » Wed May 13, 2020 8:16 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:37 pm
Parliamentary salaries are only the tip of the iceberg. Maximo displayed a link from Portal Transparencia detailing the wages of around 1400 employees of the Municipality of Santiago..

For those unfamiliar with regular Chilean wages, they are very generous. And many of these functionaries also claim overtime as shown in the tables. As Maximo says:
Podemos enterarnos de algunos cargos interesantes: Chofer, licencia media, 1.9 millones. Radio operador, octavo básico, 1.8 millones, un puesto que supongo podría cubrir sin problemas. ¡Atento, atento! ¡Atento, atento! Barredor, enseñanza básica, 1.4 millones. Aquí en la casa barro gratis bajo la atenta y exigente mirada de la patrona. Practica no me falta. Puedo pedir recomendaciones.
Who pays for it all? Businesses and residents within the Santiago municipal area. And eventually everyone else in Chile as well. Like most munis they have run up massive debts that will require a bailout sooner or later.

Won't find this stuff on the BBC. Or CNN.
No surprises there I've been saying that for years , the Municipal system in Chile is a complete rort that needs rationalisation, and consolidation.
Another example of extravagance, just look at the huge friggin palacial office buildings they build themselves for all the hangers on, and the seat warmers to be more comfortable in. Meanwhile the rest of the town they cant even organize someone to cut the grass in the parks. They are an expensive bad joke that need reforming as part of the post coronavirus modernization/elimination of waste program in Chile that needs to take place. Towns and cities in Chile are friggin fiefdoms run by yokels on a rush of power to be the local mayor, the sooner they are all consolidated and run by skilled people the better.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by fraggle092 » Wed May 13, 2020 11:38 am

41southchile wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:16 am

No surprises there I've been saying that for years , the Municipal system in Chile is a complete rort that needs rationalisation, and consolidation.

So have I. Its not bitching for the sake of it. The longer you live here, the more shit you become aware of.

Another example of extravagance, just look at the huge friggin palacial office buildings they build themselves for all the hangers on, and the seat warmers to be more comfortable in. Meanwhile the rest of the town they cant even organize someone to cut the grass in the parks. They are an expensive bad joke that need reforming as part of the post coronavirus modernization/elimination of waste program in Chile that needs to take place. Towns and cities in Chile are friggin fiefdoms run by yokels on a rush of power to be the local mayor, the sooner they are all consolidated and run by skilled people the better.
And as the controlling sector of the country, they have more power through their unions than any other group, with the possible exception of the truckers, hence the supersueldos. And frequent strikes and "manifestations". I think there's a backlash coming, ordinary people are fed up with the abuses. The ones who got fu'ed by the "estallido social" are not being listened to.

In true Chilean form, corruption and mismanagement were tolerated as long as the state left people alone, apart from tossing out the occasional bono, but when a government cannot even maintain order and stability, that's unacceptable. And the desigualdad continues. Many public-sector employees are still sitting at home in quarantine on full pay. Some even refused to acknowledge presidential authority ordering them back to work.
.
ANEF - que no se presenten” a trabajar .png
I see today that they are debating limiting political terms of office to 12 years. Lets see if that fares any better than the pay cuts. Chile is full of political apernados bolted firmly into their lucrative positions.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... -vota.html
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by admin » Wed May 13, 2020 12:05 pm

so, paul Krugman has weighed in on interest rate cuts in emerging markets, focusing on south America, and particular Chile.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... ng-markets

I have one bone to pick with his analysis. I don't think that is as big a problem as he thinks, for a few reasons (I am still chewing on it).

the developed world problem of cutting rates and cutting rates, and getting deminishing returns on stimulus measures, is in part because of "developed" nature of the market. basically, we squeezed all the growth you can out of it. there is for example both a limit of increased demand, and shallow labour market of people willing to work. further, it is much easier, with some pain, for a EM government to ignite inflation. not so easy for a developed country, because the increased liquidity just leaks out to EM markets where it can be put to work with lower costs / higher return on capital.

again, still chewing on that. don't think it as significant as he thinks it is.
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41southchile
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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by 41southchile » Wed May 13, 2020 12:33 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:38 am
41southchile wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:16 am

No surprises there I've been saying that for years , the Municipal system in Chile is a complete rort that needs rationalisation, and consolidation.

So have I. Its not bitching for the sake of it. The longer you live here, the more shit you become aware of.

Another example of extravagance, just look at the huge friggin palacial office buildings they build themselves for all the hangers on, and the seat warmers to be more comfortable in. Meanwhile the rest of the town they cant even organize someone to cut the grass in the parks. They are an expensive bad joke that need reforming as part of the post coronavirus modernization/elimination of waste program in Chile that needs to take place. Towns and cities in Chile are friggin fiefdoms run by yokels on a rush of power to be the local mayor, the sooner they are all consolidated and run by skilled people the better.
And as the controlling sector of the country, they have more power through their unions than any other group, with the possible exception of the truckers, hence the supersueldos. And frequent strikes and "manifestations". I think there's a backlash coming, ordinary people are fed up with the abuses. The ones who got fu'ed by the "estallido social" are not being listened to.

In true Chilean form, corruption and mismanagement were tolerated as long as the state left people alone, apart from tossing out the occasional bono, but when a government cannot even maintain order and stability, that's unacceptable. And the desigualdad continues. Many public-sector employees are still sitting at home in quarantine on full pay. Some even refused to acknowledge presidential authority ordering them back to work.
.
ANEF - que no se presenten” a trabajar .png

I see today that they are debating limiting political terms of office to 12 years. Lets see if that fares any better than the pay cuts. Chile is full of political apernados bolted firmly into their lucrative positions.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... -vota.html
Yup I know you have and a couple of others here too who can see what's going on, no it's and its not bitching for the sake of it . I agree with your analysis, everyday people have given tacit approval to the bullshit that goes on at local and national government level and bloated public services. Lets see how long that lasts in the face of all the things coming, something more has to give with so many incompetent snouts at the troughs of public service/govt.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: The Chile Economy, Social Crisis and Virus Impact

Post by admin » Mon May 18, 2020 10:40 am

so somehow Chile manged to squeeze out 0.04% positive growth dodging a technical recession.

https://www.df.cl/noticias/economia-y-p ... 75009.html
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