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Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:11 am
by admin
This is for general discussion related to the political and social crisis.

For what has already happened in the first 30 days, please refer to this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=17223

This is for general discussion that falls outside the specific related topics (e.g. peso, economy, constitution, etc).

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:30 am
by admin
So where were we from the old thread?

Pinera is a moron, I believe

He came out last night, spent 30 mins saying nothing about nothing.

I think he has proven to be more of a project manager, than a politician with this mess. Definitely not much of a leader.

He could, and probably should, do what all "real" politicians do in these situations: lie.

Do whatever it takes to get people of the streets.

He could go out, and say, "everyone will get a rainbow in every pot, two unicorns, a new Mercedes in every garage (oh, and everyone gets a garage too)".

It does not matter if it is true. Most all the "solutions" being offered right now are bullshit anyway. The constitution for instance. That is going to take years to complete, and possibly decades to refine. That does not solve the problem now.

At best, all the "real" solutions being offered are years away from being implemented and having any impact anyway; and it will be under some other president, some other congress, and some other budget will pay for it.

Stability is the order of the day right now.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:14 am
by Britkid
Good job on the forum reorganizing.

Not sure I agree with much of what you say. I think Piñera's speech was OK, it was good that he recognized finally the police abuses (albeit a case of too little too late perhaps). I like the bit where he said to avoid populism and demagoguery and build on rock not sand. That is true, but unfortunately the people may not have the patience for it. His speech was a bit long and waffly. As usual runs off and doesn't take any questions or interviews though. I still think he should resign.

The stability is going to come from actually delivering, the public is sick of the lies.

I think the key issue of Chile is (and I have said this many times before) is the low taxation. If you want good police and health care and education and pensions, you need to heavily tax the middle class and upper class. That is what they do in most of the countries (principally in Western and Northern Europe) that have better health care, education, pensions and so on. One thing that is mostly missing from the debate is a call for a steep increase in taxation.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:29 am
by Britkid
Beatriz Sanchez and the Frente Amplio presented a program in 2017 of taxing the rich, higher pensions and minimum wage, better education and health. It seems to me that a lot of what they were proposing has a very strong alignment with what people are protesting for right now.

And yet not many people voted for them, and their satisfaction level with the public (according to surveys) is about as bad as Pinera's coalition, even though they don't have either the Presidency, or the numbers of diputados or senators to make any real change.

And none of these protests seem to be causing any resurgence for them.

So what is going on here? Is there corruption in their party? Are people so unwilling to listen that they shout down any politician without realizing that they have the same views? Are they voting on personalities rather than policies? Are they uninformed about the policies? I really am a bit confused about this. It doesn't add up to me.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:37 am
by admin
Probably, mostly the "uninformed" problem, and those that are "informed" are mostly informed by social media and rumours more than any sort of facts.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 am
by scandinavian
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:14 am

I think the key issue of Chile is (and I have said this many times before) is the low taxation. If you want good police and health care and education and pensions, you need to heavily tax the middle class and upper class. That is what they do in most of the countries (principally in Western and Northern Europe) that have better health care, education, pensions and so on. One thing that is mostly missing from the debate is a call for a steep increase in taxation.
I partly agree, but what many seem to forget is that in the Nordics, everybody pays income tax. Also the poor, the pensioners, the students etc. This is pivotal to ensure that all feel part of the society, as everybody contributes.
Secondly, everybody has to receive something in return. In the Nordics, education is free for everybody. If you decide to send your kid to a private school, then the the cost that the state incurs for putting a kid through public school is discounted in your private school tuition. And so on and so on.

Assuming that Chile can have everything, while only taxing the "rich" and not giving anything back to them, is in my opinion one of the reasons we have this major breach in society. Some people want to receive without giving anything, whereas the other part feel that they are giving everything, but without receiving anything in return. That is not sustainable for either part.

Unfortunately, any politician standing up and suggesting a tax reform where all have to pay a lot more will never happen.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:22 pm
by fraggle092
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:29 am
Beatriz Sanchez and the Frente Amplio presented a program in 2017 of taxing the rich, higher pensions and minimum wage, better education and health. It seems to me that a lot of what they were proposing has a very strong alignment with what people are protesting for right now.
Britkid, some years ago, on this forum I posted a chart in response to a similar discussion that you responded to.
It showed how much people were prepared to pay for quality state services. Basically it was from Nothing to around 5% of their income, from what I recall.
scandinavian wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:48 am
...what many seem to forget is that in the Nordics, everybody pays income tax. Also the poor, the pensioners, the students etc. This is pivotal to ensure that all feel part of the society, as everybody contributes.
Secondly, everybody has to receive something in return. In the Nordics, education is free for everybody. If you decide to send your kid to a private school, then the the cost that the state incurs for putting a kid through public school is discounted in your private school tuition. And so on and so on.

Exactly. But here, they want it all for nothing. They have been brainwashed in a way that appeals to their naturally resentful nature, to believe that by screwing wealth out of "los ricos" they can have everything for free.

But its all basically a manifestation of what's known here as "Cultura Winner", which cannot be fixed by any amount of legislation.
La viveza del chileno, sin embargo, no siempre está acompañada del aura que otorga el beneficio colectivo. En la cotidianeidad, el "Winner" busca obtener ventajas a costa del bienestar de los demás. Si a lo anterior, le sumamos su particular habilidad para victimizarse, queda configurado el perfil de uno de los estereotipos más despreciados por la sociedad chilena.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:39 pm
by admin
the one i read about, in I believe norway, i kind of liked was fines proportional to income.

so for instance a speeding ticket is based on income, designed to deprive everyone of a months worth of income. there was a story about a billionaire that his speeding ticket was like $70,000, but the same ticket was like a few hundred for a poor person.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm
by Britkid
In the UK, income tax is zero up until about a million pesos a month.
https://www.gov.uk/income-tax-rates (X rate is about 1000 to 1)

To Fraggle's point, I do think it's sad in Chile how many people would rather spend money on smart phones and good cars but never on dentist, doctor, or education.

But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:17 pm
by fraggle092
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm
But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.
Hmm. I think this is known as illusory correlation. But I could be biased.

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm
by 41southchile
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm


To Fraggle's point, I do think it's sad in Chile how many people would rather spend money on smart phones and good cars but never on dentist, doctor, or education.

But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.
I dont think that is particularly exclusive to Chile, but they sure do love their cars and pick ups here, and their smart phones. I dont know about the education point though , most people value it a lot here, although they sometimes cant distinguish between good education and a
business whose priority is profit vs quality education for their students . Mainly at tertiary level, how many crap institutos where the students come out in debt with a dubious qualification that wont really serve them that well. That's a whole other story.
A Lot of parents make sacrifices to get their kids into better schools and just get on with it and educate their kids, while others complain that the state isn't helping them enough, there is a lot of scholarships for students apply themselves, that study and put the effort in. That happens every where too.

As for the yachts, it may indeed be sad, but sorry to say as my father always said to me , "that's life, sometimes it's not fair". There is no equality, never has been , not even in cave man times , and never will be, anyone that thinks that everyone will be equal is kidding themselves. That's what you're are trying to say isn't it?
Or would one yacht be ok for someone if cost of doctors visits fell?

Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:58 pm
by El Ping
So.... last night it seems Pinera said he would be sorting out the abusers in the Carabineros.... bit late ... however
Link here https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1XS03W?rpc=401&
(I use newsnow.co.uk for my news... and find that reuters and DW are the best source of up to date info just now )
Moving right along.... Carabineros behaving badly? And he did nothing for a month?
He obviously hasn't heard that 'the buck stops here'.... on his desk.
He is comprehensively stuffed...

Meanwhile ... flew from Santiago to Auckland last night... LA801
An observation... I have been coming and going between Aus/NZ and Chile for 16 years now.... LA800 and LA801 have always been as full as an egg.
Last night? Between 2/3rd and 3/4s full.
I read last week that LAN had taken a major hit... something like 70,000 refunds for cancelled flights and about the same cancelled tickets.
Mind you the whole SA situation just now wouldn't be doing much for the packaged tourist trade...

And also... regarding tax.... In Australia at least and maybe UK and NZ as well if you are on the basic wage ... which lets you live in frugal comfort... you are below the tax threshold... ie you pay no tax... makes sense to me.
Regarding IVA.. Australia does not charge GST/IVA on food or other essentials of life such as feminine hygiene products....
Now think of a Chilean battler with a family... maybe ( pulling figures out of the sky here ) $200,000 a week.... 50% going on food...pulling IVA off food will give him another $20,000 in his pocket to get by on....
How would the government make up the lost revenue? Dunno... same way they do in Australia maybe?

The Chilean government could do this tomorrow if they wanted to.

PS Did I mention Pinera is screwed?