Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

National Crisis, Emergencies, and Natural Disasters in Chile; including the experiences of Chile Forum Members have shared in current and in past crisis, as they have assisted each other and Chile. Things will always go wrong. It is how you deal with it that counts, and that starts with information. When things go wrong, this is the place to come to exchange information about what is going on in Chile.
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41southchile
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:19 pm

admin wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:54 pm
Russia in the neighborhood.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/ ... ted-states
Dont know why but in my head popped the Eminem song, "guess whose back" (without me) when I read your post , and I can imagine a rap song about Russia in Latin America , a Russia who never really left the region apparently , afccoding to that article, who is that guy who wrote it? VP tactical analysis 🤔. (Nevermind, read his bio, probably knows what he talking about )
Russia is a place I would love to visit, sometime , I've always found it fascinating actually , have met some really great people from there and been invited over, see what happens with that plan.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. - Darwin

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:55 pm

Oh, I like russia and russians, I just find it shocking ignorance of history that anyone would be surprised Russia is involved. Their 70+ year old M.O. is all over this. Hell, I would find it more surprising if it turned out they are not involved, even though my server traffic from a few weeks ago says otherwise.

FYI, It does seem they suddenly decided to leave the forum alone for the most part for now, after I publicly called them out a few weeks ago (now deleted). I guess no one likes having their covert operations discussed in public. It kind of means you failed, at least with the "covert" part.

I am rather amazed at how well public call outs work. It worked on the u.s.state department back after the 2010 earthquake. seems to work at keeping the russian gov in check too. probably only works because we are not really worth that much as a social media target. not sure twitter or Facebook would get the same results. we are small fish, better to just let us go.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:01 pm

so, another rather contradictory poll, but seems 72% of chileans support a hard crackdown (mano duro) by the police on anyone that engages in violence in a protest, while like 67% still support the protests going on.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... encia.html

bunch of other interesting statistics in there.

only 14% believe a new constitution is going to solve this mess. could someone send a copy to the morons in Congress?
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:10 pm

You know I am all for writing a new constitution for chile, but not under these circumstances.

writing a new constitution is serious buisness that demands 100% of the country's attention. It should not be the last thing on everyone's 'to do' list.

like:

1. stop the violence

2. reform AFP

3. reforms of minimum wage

4. fix public transportation

5. get my oil changed

6. take out the trash

7. oh, write a new constitution, if there is time today
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Britkid » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:59 am

admin wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:01 pm
so, another rather contradictory poll, but seems 72% of chileans support a hard crackdown (mano duro) by the police on anyone that engages in violence in a protest, while like 67% still support the protests going on.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... encia.html

bunch of other interesting statistics in there.

only 14% believe a new constitution is going to solve this mess. could someone send a copy to the morons in Congress?
Yes, thanks for that, pleased to see:

el 72% (as you mentioned) está de acuerdo con que se tenga mano dura contra quienes inciten o apliquen la violencia durante las manifestaciones (vs only 25% that disagree)

59% está de acuerdo con el proyecto del gobierno que permite que militares puedan proteger infraestructura crítica (vs 39% that disagree)

https://www.cadem.cl/wp-content/uploads ... edokok.pdf

Page 25 is interesting.

Protests in malls 44% agree 54% disagree
El que baila pasa 38% agree 58% disagree
Barricadas y cortes de caminos 27% agree 71% disagree
Encapuchados 20% agree 78% disagree
Rayados en las calles y monumentos 14% agree 84% disagree

Disappointed to see 64% supporting funas a politicos (vs 32% disagree). Other than that the responses look quite sensible.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by cali_chile48 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:05 am

I am still holding out hope that, given enough time, the country can produce a better constitution than the one in place now, and perhaps even a good model for other Latin American countries.

There are enough smart people in the Chile to accomplish this. It will require a sustained effort and lots of patience, a willingness to dialogue and make compromises, and a willingness to put the welfare of the republic and the masses ahead of personal gains and party loyalty. That's a lot to ask, but the stakes are pretty high for everyone.

The middle and lower classes want a clean start on a level playing field. Fairness, in other words. The elites and the CEOs should be aware by now that they need the working class for their businesses to function and that there are limits to how far they can go with repressive tactics. Everyone needs to take a pragmatic, long term view.

Yes, I can hear everyone on the forum chuckling at the idea of patient, pragmatic Chileans....but....as I said, the stakes are pretty high, so it may the fear of continued chaos more than the love of country that finally produces something.

By the way, Daniel Matamala had a good article in La Tercera the other day, emphasizing the unity in Chilean society:
https://www.latercera.com/la-tercera-do ... un/921732/

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by 41southchile » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:26 am

cali_chile48 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:05 am
I am still holding out hope that, given enough time, the country can produce a better constitution than the one in place now, and perhaps even a good model for other Latin American countries.

There are enough smart people in the Chile to accomplish this. It will require a sustained effort and lots of patience, a willingness to dialogue and make compromises, and a willingness to put the welfare of the republic and the masses ahead of personal gains and party loyalty.

Yes, I can hear everyone on the forum chuckling at the idea of patient, pragmatic Chileans....but....as I said, the stakes are pretty high, so it may the fear of continued chaos more than the love of country that finally produces something.

Not to be negative, I think maybe there is still a sliver of hope , but there is also realism and forwad planning, these are just thoughts from my conversations with Chileans over the years.

You right there are smart people in Chile (at the moment, quite a few are looking at seriously leaving) unfortunately theres a LOT of self interested uneducated, short sighted idiots too.
I dont think anyone , well not me at least, is chuckling, you right the stakes are so high but there are so many people that have so much self interest they are not going to get it done.

I mentioned the other day this was harder than Brexit, I actually heard a commentator on the radio say that the other day, this is like 3 Brexits rolled into one.
Less than half the people I have talked to think a new constitution is the answer , the rest dont think it will solve anything and will not be done right or they are ignorant.

The culture and mindset of so many needs to change and that's not an easy task . From the teenage kids that destroy their own schools with parents who take no responsibility for their kids and blame the teachers or the government or whoever else. Right through to the colluding businessmen at the other end who doesnt think twice about screwing over his own brother.

Look at how the UP , Pinochet years destroyed the social fabric of the country, and that was nearly 50 years ago and the country lives under that cloud everyday. It wasn't the Chicago boys that created Inequality those divisions became apparent in the 1970s and 1980s through the political mistrust and social divisions through the establishment of ghettos and poblaciones that developed in society, plus other things.

Divisions and mistrust that are just as strong today as they were decades ago, you cant wipe that away and all come together in unity in a few months/years/decades to have a brand new constitution everyone will be happy with, no matter how much the country burns. And the deeper the crisis goes, the more likely a Bolsonaro, Trump, even Hitler type (different scenario I know) comes along. Economic crises bring about populists and bullshit promises from them which ultimately make things worse. Do you think the majority of people here realize that ? Do they think Chile is somehow unique and immune to what has pretty much always happened in history? If so , carry on , great lets get it done, if not, ....

People here still celebrate Pinochets birthday and say he never finished the job properly, people here will key a flash car when they walk past it just because they think the owners are cuico. The emotions and animosity and everything else that has been passed down the generations is truly eye opening in a supposed civil society .


Anyone that thinks this an easy process and all will be set to go by October next year should start sending their letters to Santa Claus too.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. - Darwin

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:02 am

41southchile wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:26 am
cali_chile48 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:05 am
I am still holding out hope that, given enough time, the country can produce a better constitution than the one in place now, and perhaps even a good model for other Latin American countries.

There are enough smart people in the Chile to accomplish this. It will require a sustained effort and lots of patience, a willingness to dialogue and make compromises, and a willingness to put the welfare of the republic and the masses ahead of personal gains and party loyalty.

Yes, I can hear everyone on the forum chuckling at the idea of patient, pragmatic Chileans....but....as I said, the stakes are pretty high, so it may the fear of continued chaos more than the love of country that finally produces something.

You right there are smart people in Chile (at the moment, quite a few are looking at seriously leaving) unfortunately theres a LOT of self interested uneducated, short sighted idiots too.
I dont think anyone , well not me at least, is chuckling, you right the stakes are so high but there are so many people that have so much self interest they are not going to get it done.

I mentioned the other day this was harder than Brexit, I actually heard a commentator on the radio say that the other day, this is like 3 Brexits rolled into one.
Less than half the people I have talked to think a new constitution is the answer , the rest dont think it will solve anything and will not be done right or they are ignorant.

The culture and mindset of so many needs to change and that's not an easy task . From the teenage kids that destroy their own schools with parents who take no responsibility for their kids and blame the teachers or the government or whoever else. Right through to the colluding businessmen at the other end who doesnt think twice about screwing over his own brother.

Look at how the UP , Pinochet years destroyed the social fabric of the country, and that was nearly 50 years ago and the country lives under that cloud everyday. It wasn't the Chicago boys that created Inequality those divisions became apparent in the 1970s and 1980s through the political mistrust and social divisions through the establishment of ghettos and poblaciones that developed in society, plus other things.

Divisions and mistrust that are just as strong today as they were decades ago, you cant wipe that away and all come together in unity in a few months/years/decades to have a brand new constitution everyone will be happy with, no matter how much the country burns, and the deeper the crisis goes, the more likely a Bolsonaro, Trump, even Hitler type (different scenario I know) comes along. Economic crises bring about populists and bullshit promises from them which ultimately make things worse. Do you think the majority of people here realize that ? Do they think Chile is somehow unique and immune to what has pretty much always happened in history? If so , carry on great lets get it done, if not, ....

People here still celebrate Pinochets birthday and say he never finished the job properly, people here will key a flash car when they walk past it just because they think the owners are cuico. The emotions and animosity and everything else that has been passed down the generations is truly eye opening in a supposed civil society .


Anyone that thinks this an easy process and all will be set to go by October next year should start sending their letters to Santa Claus too.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Donnybrook » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:03 am

I am an optimist. The glass is not only half full, it can always be topped up. I do think the time frame for a new constitution is too short though.

If the numbers quoted above on page 25 are honest (rather than genuine) a couple concern me. The idea of the funa was born to annoy those who had prominent positions in the military government. So it has history. But if you think about it, it is not a democratic way of going about things. For me, it falls into the classification of bullying. Even more so is the practice of "quien baila pasa", dance for us to be let through. This also has history but against the Jews in Germany before they decided to just kill them instead. Protests in malls are loud and annoying but you can always just leave the mall, not a choice you have with the other two.

Thinking beyond today isn't thick on the ground in South America in general, nor is analytic thought. The bill always comes due but is often met with surprise. What I call the Oops Factor. What we allow now will be perpetuated in the future. This will have more impact than a new constitution. We have certainly seen the dark underbelly of Chile recently. If we want a better country we all have to do better, not just those we disagree with.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:12 am

Donnybrook I believe you have mentioned your life in other parts during turbulent past times was it Peru during shining path days?

Could you expand on those experiences, no problem if you don't.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:19 am

Yet,

I still have some faith in Chileans, overall to cut through the bullshit when it counts.

It is why chile has made it as far as it has in development.

After the 2010 earthquake, it was really heartening to see government people, ngos, rich, poor, all drop the bullshit and get things done.

we had government employees in charge of relief efforts, take personal days off from their "job" to come work with us, because as they put it "Santiago has no clue what is going on down here on the ground". They were still doing their job, just to do it better they quit answering the phone from the beucrats in Santiago.

our doctors from the states that volunteered, had been run around by beucrats for months to get provisional recognition of their medical licenses. magically the health department said stop in Puerto Montt, and we will meet you at the airport with your authorization.

NGOs lent us trucks to move stuff to one area. we put gas in their trucks so, they could move volunteers to another area.

we would come in for landing on a runway owned by a logging company, and an airforce plane was already there. It too was a state of emergency, so we did not know what to expect. Not only were they friendly and happy to see us, the commander invited us to stay back at their base as the weather was about to ground us.

there are many more examples.

So, chileans can pull their shit together as nation when it counts, and hopefully this situation counts.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:33 am

What was disheartening to me was what happened in my area. After the 2010 megaquake, there was no looting and human caused destruction and the community with their experience of 1985 pulled together to come through it while this was the exact opposite of community, unity and solidarity. Of course this time from the first disturbances in San Antonio on 29-O, there have been outside (the area) influences imported or via proxy.
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