admin wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:14 pm
O.k., enough with the twitter links. I was willing to allow it as mildly educational examples of social media crap being spread.
Twitter is notoriously full of bullshit lies. none of it which is trustworthy, or is any type of reliable source of information.
come on, Trump uses it.
Disappointed by this decision. How can it be bullshit lies when it is a video provided without commentary?
This forum seems to me to be focused on the security situation and the crime to a greater extent, while many posters seem less interested in the other side of the equation: the protesters demands, inequality in Chile, and police brutality.
People here link to criminal activity as evidence that the protests are not peaceful but ignore the often (not always) clear delineation between those criminals and the peaceful protests that are constantly happening. There is no doubt that there are more peaceful protesters than criminals and violent protesters, maybe by 10:1.
People were talking earlier about how the police need to crack down on crime. The police abuses highlighted by Dosed Monkey are very relevant to that debate. It's clear that many abuses have happened and the "some abuses are inevitable in a chaotic situation" argument, which I myself believed in the first week, is losing a bit of steam as the number of videos of beatings of clearly subdued protesters increases, the evidence for abuses in captivity increases, the length of time increases with no convictions or dismissals of police, and further there are no denials to any of these videos.
The TV clearly has focused very little on these abuses throughout, and therefore, despite all its many faults (I hate twitter actually) we do need social media in addition to TV and other online sources to get the full picture.
We don't want to believe in systematic police abuse because it's a scary and unpleasant thought, so the instinct is to deny or ignore it, but you need to keep an open mind.
If you want the police to crack down on the crime, the government needs to give in more to the people's demands and fire and convict police officers and officials that have been say kicking subdued and arrested people in the head and abusing people in captivity, so that the police have more legitimacy in the first place. If the people can't be identified, then a number of heads need to roll at the top.
Now yes some of this criminal element don't give a shit about the protesters demands and are totally separate. I totally agree that some of the looters and vandals and arsonists are just scum. But there is also sometimes a mixing of different groups, the way the bad element uses mostly peaceful protesters as cover.
The strategy should be to announce some better measures quickly: better pensions, bigger minimum wage increase, confirm the temporary about 50% salary reduction to politicians as permanent for example. Then convict and fire some officers publicly (officers fired for abuses could get doxxed so they need to be given another place to stay without their identities known for a while). Then appoint a new police chief who promises to change the culture. If that happens, maybe some of this criminal element will melt away. But perhaps not. And that's when you move in hard, surgically, attacking clearly criminal groups that don't even have any peaceful protesters in them, and getting the best trained forces to do it.
I also want to see some police turning up and kicking ass against the looters and arsonists who are really fucking the country. But if they do it without first addressing the protesters demands, and without addressing the police abuses, and then when they do it it goes badly wrong
- say they start shooting at people running away and it turns out one was a kid and another was a bystander - then things are going to get worse....