Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

National Crisis, Emergencies, and Natural Disasters in Chile; including the experiences of Chile Forum Members have shared in current and in past crisis, as they have assisted each other and Chile. Things will always go wrong. It is how you deal with it that counts, and that starts with information. When things go wrong, this is the place to come to exchange information about what is going on in Chile.
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mem
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by mem » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:02 am

admin wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:57 am
Donnybrook wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:47 am
Although the situation is disturbing I feel that has more to do with the damage being done to jobs and infrastructure. I have a close friend who is still a big fan of the military years and sees 1970 around the corner. She has been going mental on whatsapp. I imagine others are afraid of this happening. But this is not the Chile of 1970. A hugely greater number of people now have a stake in a stable country. People who are the first in the family to own a car, a house or wear a suit, whatever political party they vote for, they are not going to give up that hold on a better life.

I believe there is more than one thing going on. There are genuine grievances - made worse by an appalling absence of any knowledge about how the system they live in actually works - which need addressing. Personal debt is a huge problem and needs to be looked at. But there is also a move to grab political power outside the ballot box. People hoping to grab some power out of the chaos. Then you have the baddies, the ones who are comfortable in the world of theft and destruction. Many looted items are being distributed in areas where the drug dealers would like a passive neighbourhood in which to operate; old mafia trick. Then the teenagers, absolutely the loudest and most disruptive but is that any surprise to anyone who has ever had a teenager in the house?

All this badly reported, especially from outside Chile and on the internet. It is so much easier, and lazier, to just grab the genuine grievances and run with them. Apparently everyone likes a revolution unless it is in their own country. There is room for some really good, in depth reporting but no one is filling that space.

As for the police, can anyone name civil unrest which has happened across a country in multiple cities for over 40 days? Countries with democratically elected governments? It isn't their excesses which are surprising but their restraint.
United States of America

Although the police shot and beat them the whole time.
Interesting becasue I was looking this up last month and checking out the duration of things like Watts riots, rodney king, WTO, and I thought that all of those cases were around a week before the status quo was restored. OWS definitely went on longer but it wasnt really looting and burning for the whole duration. Maybe civil rights movement but im not sure that compares to what is going on here. Most of OWS was people with lawn chairs and signs once it lost momentum. I'd be interested to know of any multi city violent riots that went on for longer than a month in the US

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fraggle092
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:05 am

tiagoabner wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:51 am
Yesterday they tested the waters at Alto Las Condes. It was the same as with Parque Arauco: mostly students and younger folks.
That's how they have worked all along. And nobody in charge seems to ever see it coming.
Remember the Molotov episodes at the INBA throughout last year? That was testing the waters as well.

What was the government response? Another friggin' Law.

Those were the activists that set the Metro on fire.

I have made quite a lot of posts here on the topic of Chile's dysfunctional society over the years But I never thought that the results of corruption and negligence would be quite so extreme. Siembra vientos, cosecha tempestades.
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tiagoabner
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by tiagoabner » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:15 am

mem wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:57 am
tiagoabner wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 am
Fun side story: I'm currently working on a move to an apartment in Las Condes to avoid the protests close by, and I had some amusing interactions with real estate agents.

I'm the director of an US insurance brokerage firm, and I get paid a very decent salary on my US account. However, the real estate agents couldn't wrap their heads around why I didn't move all my money to Chile at the first opportunity. I needed to look at a dozen places before I could find one that didn't ask why I didn't bring my x million pesos per month to Chile. They couldn't even wrap their heads around Cuenta RUT only holding up to 3 million in balance.

Even more funny was their reaction when they learned that I don't have a car. They expect you to have a car if you make over a certain amount, as if that was a status symbol. I wonder how they would react when they learned that me and my wife arrived in Chile with one suitcase each only, and no other luggage items.

That talks a lot about medium to high income Chileans. The new rich are disconnected from the other groups, and they can't really relate with people that don't live the same way as them.
Are they really "new rich" if they are broke in 2 months if income stops coming in?

Seems more like upper middle class. I guess I'd put new rich at a few hundred thousand USD a year of income and of course massive savings/assets if they have had that income for 10 years. I guess even someone like that could be broke in a couple months if they are highly leveraged in debt, not saving, and not paying the interest in full each month as well as a big chunk of principle.
I would still say yes. It really doesn't matter if you get paid a hundred thousand dollars if you spend one hundred thousand dollars.

There's a reason why most of our US doctor clients preach living like a resident for a few years: you can't save if you spend it all
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:24 am

mem wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:02 am
admin wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:57 am
Donnybrook wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:47 am
Although the situation is disturbing I feel that has more to do with the damage being done to jobs and infrastructure. I have a close friend who is still a big fan of the military years and sees 1970 around the corner. She has been going mental on whatsapp. I imagine others are afraid of this happening. But this is not the Chile of 1970. A hugely greater number of people now have a stake in a stable country. People who are the first in the family to own a car, a house or wear a suit, whatever political party they vote for, they are not going to give up that hold on a better life.

I believe there is more than one thing going on. There are genuine grievances - made worse by an appalling absence of any knowledge about how the system they live in actually works - which need addressing. Personal debt is a huge problem and needs to be looked at. But there is also a move to grab political power outside the ballot box. People hoping to grab some power out of the chaos. Then you have the baddies, the ones who are comfortable in the world of theft and destruction. Many looted items are being distributed in areas where the drug dealers would like a passive neighbourhood in which to operate; old mafia trick. Then the teenagers, absolutely the loudest and most disruptive but is that any surprise to anyone who has ever had a teenager in the house?

All this badly reported, especially from outside Chile and on the internet. It is so much easier, and lazier, to just grab the genuine grievances and run with them. Apparently everyone likes a revolution unless it is in their own country. There is room for some really good, in depth reporting but no one is filling that space.

As for the police, can anyone name civil unrest which has happened across a country in multiple cities for over 40 days? Countries with democratically elected governments? It isn't their excesses which are surprising but their restraint.
United States of America

Although the police shot and beat them the whole time.
Interesting becasue I was looking this up last month and checking out the duration of things like Watts riots, rodney king, WTO, and I thought that all of those cases were around a week before the status quo was restored. OWS definitely went on longer but it wasnt really looting and burning for the whole duration. Maybe civil rights movement but im not sure that compares to what is going on here. Most of OWS was people with lawn chairs and signs once it lost momentum. I'd be interested to know of any multi city violent riots that went on for longer than a month in the US
I think the late 1950's to 1970's civil rights movements are totally comparable. The history books have been sanitized for the masses, showing happy woodstock hippies and the "I have a dream" speech in Washington. Remember the civil rights movement was first and foremost about "inequity" of rights, both political, social, and economic; and it was not just about black people. Women, indians, Mexicans, gays, etc; plus a lot of union strikes by very white and very poor people. The grade school history books like to skip over the national guards being deployed to the street with M-60s. The FBI chasing " communist " as code for keeping poor minorities and protest organizers in their place. They don't show the armored personnel carriers, or helicopter gunships deployed to the indian reservations, nor do they talk too much about the CIA operations on American soil against American citizens.

I have an old friend that worked for 40 years for the telecoms companies in the united states through the 60's to 80s. He was telling me how in the 1970's he was installing high tech, classified, digital switches, on an otherwise mostly analog phone network junctions, across the United states, that went one place: Washington D.C.

so, yea the end of the new deal and WWII sort of hit the pause button, until the American economy took off through the early 50's, until a lot of Americans left behind sort of looked around and said, "where the hell is my slice of the pie"?

women wanted out of the kitchen, after having worked through WWII. blacks said, "we fought and died too in the war", etc, etc.

and the u.s. is making that mistake all over again.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by GAminer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:26 am

tiagoabner wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 am
Fun side story: I'm currently working on a move to an apartment in Las Condes to avoid the protests close by, and I had some amusing interactions with real estate agents.

I'm the director of an US insurance brokerage firm, and I get paid a very decent salary on my US account. However, the real estate agents couldn't wrap their heads around why I didn't move all my money to Chile at the first opportunity. I needed to look at a dozen places before I could find one that didn't ask why I didn't bring my x million pesos per month to Chile. They couldn't even wrap their heads around Cuenta RUT only holding up to 3 million in balance.

Even more funny was their reaction when they learned that I don't have a car. They expect you to have a car if you make over a certain amount, as if that was a status symbol. I wonder how they would react when they learned that me and my wife arrived in Chile with one suitcase each only, and no other luggage items.

That talks a lot about medium to high income Chileans. The new rich are disconnected from the other groups, and they can't really relate with people that don't live the same way as them.
The corredoras here are idiots and fake as hell. I remember when I rented my first apartment in los dominicos the lady said just some of the stupidest and classist stuff. The good thing though is they will be more likely to waive the normal rental requirements with you, such as DICOM and all that nonsense. That is the worst part about renting in Chile.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Britkid » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:49 am

Tiagoabner, your story reminds of when I was looking at a place to rent, and I had a cheap 20,000 phone with a tiny screen and keyboard, and the landlord said to me "you really have to get a new phone".

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Britkid » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:53 am

gregf wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:34 pm
This take is a bit more positive: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/ ... 75534.html
This article doesn't have much substance to back up its claim that Chile will get better. Also, the comment "violent protests that left at least 24 dead in recent weeks and ended with a political agreement to re-write its constitution" is a mistake since it it saying the constitution rewrite plan ended the violence. In reality, the constitucion addresses about 10% of the demands, another 10% has already been addressed elsewhere by slightly lifting minimum wage, addressing high politician salaries, and some other matters and I'd say 80% is yet to be addressed.

The rest of the article has some good points though, so thanks for sharing.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:53 am

41southchile wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 am
I was thinking about this the other day, when I was dealing with one pretentious prick of an architect who came from humble beginnings but now thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
One of Chileans less attractive features is the lack of empathy. Between individuals and social classes. Greed, Envy and Resentment at the bottom, Snobbery, Selfishness and Fear further up. The attitudes here are similar to English ones 200 years ago. And there, it took two world wars to achieve a certain rapprochement between the classes.

Animal spirits. Can't be legislated away.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by tiagoabner » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:21 pm

GAminer wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:26 am
tiagoabner wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:45 am
Fun side story: I'm currently working on a move to an apartment in Las Condes to avoid the protests close by, and I had some amusing interactions with real estate agents.

I'm the director of an US insurance brokerage firm, and I get paid a very decent salary on my US account. However, the real estate agents couldn't wrap their heads around why I didn't move all my money to Chile at the first opportunity. I needed to look at a dozen places before I could find one that didn't ask why I didn't bring my x million pesos per month to Chile. They couldn't even wrap their heads around Cuenta RUT only holding up to 3 million in balance.

Even more funny was their reaction when they learned that I don't have a car. They expect you to have a car if you make over a certain amount, as if that was a status symbol. I wonder how they would react when they learned that me and my wife arrived in Chile with one suitcase each only, and no other luggage items.

That talks a lot about medium to high income Chileans. The new rich are disconnected from the other groups, and they can't really relate with people that don't live the same way as them.
The corredoras here are idiots and fake as hell. I remember when I rented my first apartment in los dominicos the lady said just some of the stupidest and classist stuff. The good thing though is they will be more likely to waive the normal rental requirements with you, such as DICOM and all that nonsense. That is the worst part about renting in Chile.
I managed to find a place after about 20 tries. I actually do happen to have the fabled Dicom Platinum, but most of them wouldn't rent to a foreigner without a Chilean copayer/aval. I ended up calling corretoras and cutting their sales to ask outright if they would rent to me.

It may sound sexist, but the impression I got was that most corretoras were bored housewives trying to make some money on the side.
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:26 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:25 pm
Dosedmonkey wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:59 pm

Notice a lot of Carabineros have removed their identities off their uniform over the last week, so between that and balaclavas, even if the government wanted to prosecute them, you couldn't.
That's because a hack into Carabineros data systems gleaned a lot of personal information, including names and addresses. They and their families are getting threats.
So that would mean they are only getting threats after they have been caught doing something specific. As the database is already out for all Carabineros and where they are stationed. It's not hard, re-assign them new numbers and then prosecute those who are doing things to enrage people enough to attack their families...

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:27 pm

scandinavian wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:14 pm
Dosedmonkey wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:59 pm
Another day another step closer to civil war.

https://twitter.com/R1card0Est3ban_/sta ... 03968?s=20

https://twitter.com/R1card0Est3ban_/sta ... 80224?s=20

https://twitter.com/RadioTVLiberaci/sta ... 39616?s=20

People almost killed, including the Carabineros with shields by an armoured car ramming at a peaceful protest by concerned ladies.
https://twitter.com/prensaopal/status/1 ... 46720?s=20

Evidence of Carabineros ignoring looting and targeting protests.
https://twitter.com/Alma_Negra_30/statu ... 14689?s=20

And another looting allowed...
https://twitter.com/anomico_2/status/12 ... 84832?s=20

Hit the link limit there. But you get the general picture...

Notice a lot of Carabineros have removed their identities off their uniform over the last week, so between that and balaclavas, even if the government wanted to prosecute them, you couldn't.
Please don't share old tweets and fake news. Are you even in Chile?
Which ones. Please enlighten us then saying real videos are fake.

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:31 pm

41southchile wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:51 am
Dosedmonkey wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:59 pm
Another day another step closer to civil war.

https://twitter.com/R1card0Est3ban_/sta ... 03968?s=20

https://twitter.com/R1card0Est3ban_/sta ... 80224?s=20

https://twitter.com/RadioTVLiberaci/sta ... 39616?s=20

People almost killed, including the Carabineros with shields by an armoured car ramming at a peaceful protest by concerned ladies.
https://twitter.com/prensaopal/status/1 ... 46720?s=20

Evidence of Carabineros ignoring looting and targeting protests.
https://twitter.com/Alma_Negra_30/statu ... 14689?s=20

And another looting allowed...
https://twitter.com/anomico_2/status/12 ... 84832?s=20

Hit the link limit there. But you get the general picture...

Notice a lot of Carabineros have removed their identities off their uniform over the last week, so between that and balaclavas, even if the government wanted to prosecute them, you couldn't.
The twitterverse is not representative of what is happening. Just like it comes with a warning on some car wing mirrors, Twitter should come with a warning too "content maybe further from reality than it appears "
So how much police brutality is allowed to go unjustified? It's obviously not happening on every street. But it does indicate the actions and behaviour of Carabineros. For every video there will be many more incidents not on video.

I have to not post about 2-3% of the shocking videos I have seen. I guess some people will just rage if I made a page collating them. What you don't see you can deny after all.

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