Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

National Crisis, Emergencies, and Natural Disasters in Chile; including the experiences of Chile Forum Members have shared in current and in past crisis, as they have assisted each other and Chile. Things will always go wrong. It is how you deal with it that counts, and that starts with information. When things go wrong, this is the place to come to exchange information about what is going on in Chile.
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Britkid
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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Britkid » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:21 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm
But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.
Hmm. I think this is known as illusory correlation. But I could be biased.
Well my theory is you place a high tax on the person with two yachts (whether income tax or wealth tax) and then use that tax to pay for free health care for all - or get closer to that point. The person with two yachts then has to sell one of them.

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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by gregf » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:01 pm

I'm annoyed with the focus on "tax evil billionaires" rhetoric which oversimplifies and distracts from the real problem, which billionaires may or may not be a product of. Which is cronyism, I guess, essentially. Especially in the USA. But all we shout about is tax the rich more pay their share etc and no one is paying attention to the real issue underlying this and making things better for free enterprise in general. At least that is my feeling on the subject as of late. I just started reading an interesting book called The Great Reversal that talks about this in terms of the USA. I don't know how much of similar things are happening in Chile but its not rich people or capitalism that is evil inherently... most of the trouble comes up when the govt starts distorting things.

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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by mem » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:14 pm

El Ping wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:58 pm
So.... last night it seems Pinera said he would be sorting out the abusers in the Carabineros.... bit late ... however
Link here https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1XS03W?rpc=401&
(I use newsnow.co.uk for my news... and find that reuters and DW are the best source of up to date info just now )
Moving right along.... Carabineros behaving badly? And he did nothing for a month?
He obviously hasn't heard that 'the buck stops here'.... on his desk.
He is comprehensively stuffed...

Meanwhile ... flew from Santiago to Auckland last night... LA801
An observation... I have been coming and going between Aus/NZ and Chile for 16 years now.... LA800 and LA801 have always been as full as an egg.
Last night? Between 2/3rd and 3/4s full.
I read last week that LAN had taken a major hit... something like 70,000 refunds for cancelled flights and about the same cancelled tickets.
Mind you the whole SA situation just now wouldn't be doing much for the packaged tourist trade...

And also... regarding tax.... In Australia at least and maybe UK and NZ as well if you are on the basic wage ... which lets you live in frugal comfort... you are below the tax threshold... ie you pay no tax... makes sense to me.
Regarding IVA.. Australia does not charge GST/IVA on food or other essentials of life such as feminine hygiene products....
Now think of a Chilean battler with a family... maybe ( pulling figures out of the sky here ) $200,000 a week.... 50% going on food...pulling IVA off food will give him another $20,000 in his pocket to get by on....
How would the government make up the lost revenue? Dunno... same way they do in Australia maybe?

The Chilean government could do this tomorrow if they wanted to.

PS Did I mention Pinera is screwed?
Pinera couldnt alone, perhaps the legislature could but I don't know what bureaucracy the legislature is a slave to

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41southchile
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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:24 pm

gregf wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:01 pm
.. most of the trouble comes up when the govt starts distorting things.
Yeah everyone blames the corporates or whatever, govt is often worse at trying to provide solutions in many areas. Strange how so many seem to think govt will do a better job. Yesterday the Puerto Montt muni cancelled a contract to purchase over 300 smart phones for their staff, over 200 million pesos, why 300 Puerto montt muni staff need a 750000 peso phone is not known. Multiply that across the country and then add all the other waste from central govt. It's easy to spend other people's money.

Yet the local entrepreneur near us, set up a shop to sell goods and provide a servipag money place, she has been facing nearly a year of delays to get her paperwork from the local muni to be able to offer more products.

Imagine the potential of Chile if the public servants actually belonged there and were qualified and working for the community or country interests.

The state very rarely does things better than private enterprise, but they need to play a more proactive role in making the economy work better, which they fail at here on many levels.

Both sides have pros and cons but people sometimes think the state is somehow going to do a better job.
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41southchile
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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:10 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:50 pm
fraggle092 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm
But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.
Hmm. I think this is known as illusory correlation. But I could be biased.
People with yachts are spending a lot of money. This is good for the economy. That yacht keeps dozens of people employed. Cleaning, painting, repairing engine, changing zincs, scraping barnacles, repairing sails, regularly replacing covers and cushions. Everything on a boat is constantly breaking, corroding, wearing out. Each time you go out, you come back with a list of problems. It is a constant battle against entropy. The purchase cost is nothing compared to maintenance.

Someone once asked Nathaniel Herreshoff how much it costs to build a yacht. The answer -- If you have to ask, then you can't afford it. This is not, as commonly thought, arrogance, but indication of the greater cost of maintenance.

That guy with a yacht chooses to work harder and make more money. He doesn't hoard the money. It gets spent on maintenance which goes to wages of workers. And it is already taxed when earned and taxed when spent. If that guy sold his yacht and watched tv all day, it might make you feel better, but it would hurt the economy, and cause people to lose their jobs.

A few years ago, during Clinton, congress passed a huge luxury tax on yachts. What followed was bankruptcy of hundreds of small businesses involved in making and servicing yachts.
Very good point, I guess the yacht is just the visable sign of wealth but when people think of rich people in yachts they think not of the hardworking business man, they think of the super rich. The likes of who , have made their fortune through not just their own talents but having the rules bent in their favor. The likes of who engage in Anti competitive behavior, collusion or wine and dine those in power in Washington/Santiago, or wherever.
Those who receive lucrative contracts and tenders, I am sure you know the list is long and varied of behaviors and practices.
Just look at the video last year of the fund managers and executives from one of the ISAPREs (I think maybe was afp) after raking in hundreds of millions last year. They were so casual and dumb that it filtered out on WhatsApp , drinking and partying it up in the Caribbean on a yacht, all expense paid by the company.

it's all those sorts of stories that people associate with big yachts or several yachts, not the low profile rich guy who has made it himself, but eventually you get so big you have to move to Washington like Bezos, it's kind of inevitable. The yacht is just the symbol I guess.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:01 pm

Here's part of the problem. Won't be solved by confiscating yachts.
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Didn't bother to add the politicians, who are an open sore on the face of society.
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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by Britkid » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:23 pm

The economic benefits of the yacht are not lost, they are transferred. So I have taxed the yacht owner and have now either:

1 Added more medical services, meaning more people go to the doctor more often and are healthier (poorer countries have less doctors per person). People in the yacht production and supply chain have lost their jobs, but others have gained jobs as doctors or in that supply chain. Economic activity is now more productively directed towards making society healthy and happy and more equal instead of excess consumption.

and/or

2 Not increased medical services, but made existing services free. People still go to the doctor, but no longer pay. They now have more money. Perhaps that money, effectively transferred from the yacht owner to them, gets spent it on a movie, a dinner out, a weekend break, who knows. Maybe they buy a day trip on a yacht? Either way economic activity is still generated approx equal to before.

No money is burned or thrown away, and hence no net less of economic activity or jobs.

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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:26 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:50 pm
fraggle092 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:17 pm
Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:00 pm
But I also think it's sad that some people have two yachts and others are dying because they hesitated too long to go to the doctor because they knew there would be a cost.
Hmm. I think this is known as illusory correlation. But I could be biased.
People with yachts are spending a lot of money. This is good for the economy. That yacht keeps dozens of people employed. Cleaning, painting, repairing engine, changing zincs, scraping barnacles, repairing sails, regularly replacing covers and cushions. Everything on a boat is constantly breaking, corroding, wearing out. Each time you go out, you come back with a list of problems. It is a constant battle against entropy. The purchase cost is nothing compared to maintenance.

Someone once asked Nathaniel Herreshoff how much it costs to build a yacht. The answer -- If you have to ask, then you can't afford it. This is not, as commonly thought, arrogance, but indication of the greater cost of maintenance.

That guy with a yacht chooses to work harder and make more money. He doesn't hoard the money. It gets spent on maintenance which goes to wages of workers. And it is already taxed when earned and taxed when spent. If that guy sold his yacht and watched tv all day, it might make you feel better, but it would hurt the economy, and cause people to lose their jobs.

A few years ago, during Clinton, congress passed a huge luxury tax on yachts. What followed was bankruptcy of hundreds of small businesses involved in making and servicing yachts.
I have a yacht that is not hypothetical.

My wife and I were literally scheduled to fly the 30th of October, to help a client buy a yacht, that would have been used for tourism cruises in the Patagonia.

That little venture was probably good for 10 to 30 fulltime jobs, most in rural remote areas, and most in fairly moderate to high pay jobs.

Project canceled on account of the social unrest. Probably will never be revived.
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm

other than the yacht project that sunk, and we were already advising the client against it, most of our client's projects are sort of just frozen until there is more clarity.

a few were pushed later in to the year. a few have actually confirmed they are moving forward, regardless of what is going on. a lot of those are not really effected at all by what is going on in plaza Italia, or where ever.

really overall we are just telling clients to stand by for more information before making any decisions.

I keep thinking back to that morning after the 2010 earthquake. my wife and i are sitting in our kitchen in Temuco around a candle before dawn, no lights, no radio, no news, no cell, internet, nothing other than we knew there had been an 8.8 and fairly close to us. remember, that was shortly after haiti. so, we were imagining something far, far worse.

we were looking at eachother like, 'now what do we do'. we were expecting to never see another foreign client again. like in our minds, we had sort of wrote off our buisness and Chile for that matter.

so we sort of decided, well buisness is toast, but we still have lot if experience and resources, let's go help. so we did.

guess what?

about a week later my phone started ringing again (after the phone started working again). In the middle of that disaster, people still wanted to invest in chile. they still had legal problems. some of them, for some reason, were calling me from the other end of the earth, and were completely unaware of the disaster. others, even after I explained what was going on, simply did not care. they still wanted to buy something, move to Chile, etc, etc.

life goes on, and crisis often look the worse smack in the middle of the storm.
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For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

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Re: General, Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:30 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:23 pm

So I have taxed the yacht owner and have now either:

1. Economic activity is now more productively directed towards making society healthy and happy and more equal instead of excess consumption.

and/or

2 Not increased medical services, but made existing services free.



On point 1 , who says so ? Who's definition of productively directed towards making society happy ? The politicians? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Point 2. You stated at the beginning you taxed the yacht owner so existing services are not free are they?
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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by mem » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:48 pm

admin wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm
other than the yacht project that sunk, and we were already advising the client against it, most of our client's projects are sort of just frozen until there is more clarity.

a few were pushed later in to the year. a few have actually confirmed they are moving forward, regardless of what is going on. a lot of those are not really effected at all by what is going on in plaza Italia, or where ever.

really overall we are just telling clients to stand by for more information before making any decisions.

I keep thinking back to that morning after the 2010 earthquake. my wife and i are sitting in our kitchen in Temuco around a candle before dawn, no lights, no radio, no news, no cell, internet, nothing other than we knew there had been an 8.8 and fairly close to us. remember, that was shortly after haiti. so, we were imagining something far, far worse.

we were looking at eachother like, 'now what do we do'. we were expecting to never see another foreign client again. like in our minds, we had sort of wrote off our buisness and Chile for that matter.

so we sort of decided, well buisness is toast, but we still have lot if experience and resources, let's go help. so we did.

guess what?

about a week later my phone started ringing again (after the phone started working again). In the middle of that disaster, people still wanted to invest in chile. they still had legal problems. some of them, for some reason, were calling me from the other end of the earth, and were completely unaware of the disaster. others, even after I explained what was going on, simply did not care. they still wanted to buy something, move to Chile, etc, etc.

life goes on, and crisis often look the worse smack in the middle of the storm.
Yeah I agree. Last week I was a little under the weather which combined with some anxiety about the situation left me feeling particularly apocalyptic.

But after studying up on the France riots and how utterly identical they are with Chile's riots it actually gave me a lot of hope and pulled me back from the cup half empty mentality. France is still here and so will Chile most likely.
Of course a new constitution is a wildcard but like everything always has in Chile it will take a long time to happen if ever and it will telegraph the result far in advance

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Re: Chile Political and Social Crisis 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:05 pm

JAJA, experienced the student riots when living near Santa Rosa and Alameda in Santiasco, experienced the north part of the rectangular maximum shake zone of 2010 (some theorize that there where two simultaneous releases that morning, the big one in the south and one near San Antonio), now living through this, what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger.

But this social, economic, political quake is far from over and has proven to be far more destructive (except for direct event deaths) than an 8.8 offshore earthquake.

The future is open on this one.
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