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Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:30 am
by Zenth
Corporations have special interests. You wouldn’t expect a mining company to have the same land use ideas as an agricultural corporation and they each deserve a voice. Besides, a corp can have their directors or shareholders ( or even their employees) contribute its best interests so what’s the difference form where the money comes. It all originates with the corp.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:57 am
by admin
here is an interesting article on the constitution of 1925 in this morning's local paper:

http://www.ellanquihue.cl/impresa/2019/ ... rtajes/16/

what was particularly eye catching, and something we often overlooked, as people holdup particular constitutions as "examples of great democratic instruments", is who consented to the constitution.

In 1925 less than 10% of the country was eligible to vote, because they could not read and write, or they were not landowners. I did not see mention of women voting either, but given the time suspect not.

but the thing to keep in mind, most constitutions, get hijacked by the political process and special interest.

The people clamoring for a new constitution, might not like the results even more than the current constitution; and many of the effects might be known for years. unintended consequences is my biggest fear in this process.

well, on a bright note, I seen a stat go by this week, that the most sold book in the country last month was the constitution. At least people are reading it; and it is not exactly the most eloquent page turner.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:19 am
by admin
mostly thinking outloud about what should to in to a constitution, given the nature of chile and what seems to have worked well in other places.

people are bitching, to a great degree, about their lack of say, or input into the government and how it is run. so, I was thinking this morning about what sort of mechanisms in constitutions have proven to put power and accountability in the hands of the people.

my thinking is, if sufficient power is left with the people, it also leaves them less excuses to go protest in the street about bla, bla...

strong, independent, judicial system:

I might be biased having grownup in the United states, but the common law system in the u.s. and other british traditions, has for the most part stood the test of time. I went over this earlier, but it should provide clear mechanism for people to defend their rights against the state. protection for minority rights, while maintaining majority rule.

ballot initiatives:

some sort of mechanism allowing for ballot initiatives for laws that people want, to over ride congress when they get stupid or lazy.

however, it should be a very slow, deliberate process, that only the most important initiatives get approved for even going to vote. really strong guard rails in other words, to stop mob rule.

likewise, and I am not aware of any country that has done this, a mechanism for laws passed by congress, to be vetoed by the people at the ballot box.

elected official pay:

I really like the idea of something like a base pay, and bonus based on economic growth, wages, inflation, etc. something that politicians are awarded, when they get it right and do their job. they don't prosper, unless the country prospers.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:37 am
by admin
guard rails on a ballot initiative:

I was thinking perhaps something like it has to be voted on twice, after a cooling off period.

for example, chile votes every two years. a law has to have a 50% or better to be excepted. wait two years, then it goes for another vote and needs something like 60 or 70% to be made law. It gives the country time to really debate the pros and cons. no crazy rushed brexit type votes.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:07 pm
by Zenth
Here’s the first problem. Why do you have to buy a copy of the constitution?

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm
by fraggle092
Zenth wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:07 pm
Here’s the first problem. Why do you have to buy a copy of the constitution?
Why indeed, when its available for free online....

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:31 pm
by tiagoabner
fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:56 pm
Zenth wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:07 pm
Here’s the first problem. Why do you have to buy a copy of the constitution?
Why indeed, when its available for free online....
The same reason people buy bibles, I guess. Some people prefer paper over digital.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:42 am
by Space Cat
It's on!

UDI delayed it deep into the night (2:25am) by the demand to leave Pinochet's articles where new ones don't get approval. Everybody looks sleepy and exhausted but they are still able to construct boring political blah-blahs on camera.

The results are:
  • a new constitution from scratch during a renamed "Asamblea Constituyente", now it's "Convención Constitucional" lol
  • the plebiscite is in April
  • the citizens will vote if they want a new constitution at all
  • if yes, then what type: 100% elected citizens or 50/50 with congress representatives
  • the elections of the members of the convention are in October
  • one more plebiscite when it's written to approve the result
The signed resolution: https://twitter.com/galabra/status/1195 ... 22209?s=21

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:27 am
by admin
yea, there are some big ass holes in that agreement. i want to see the fine print, as it is going through congress.

but, assuming this get's through Congress, it still needs an amendment to the current constitution to work.

I am also not clear on what happens if the "constitutional convention" fails to come up with one at all. how many members, etc. what happens if the constitution they put to a vote is rejected by the people?

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:30 am
by admin
one thing i am certain of, I don't want to see these political parties anywhere near a constitutional convention.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:58 am
by Britkid
Some politicians and some TV presenters I saw this morning seemed to think was a major step forward. I think it would have made more sense to start with a big increase to the minimum wage and pensions if they really want to try and calm things down.

Re: Let us write a constitution for Chile.

Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:02 am
by Zenth
There will always be special interests represented. Call them what you like; agricultural versus industrial, rural vs. metropolitan, liberal vs. conservative, and capitalists vs. socialists.
The trick is to do the better job, not the best job.