State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

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mem
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:48 pm

admin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 pm
oh, please this is how this works in Chile, and it is just exactly how it works anywhere in the world.

The rich will simply isolate themselves from the poor. They do it everywhere from Beijing, to Bellair, to Martha's vineyard. In latin america, especially in the more dangerous countries, the "rich" part of the city turns in to a whole separate country. I hear, even as big a socialist mess as Venezuela is, the rich part of Caracas is working just fine.

In chile, for example, please take note that there has not been one major incident, or even significant protest, allowed in to Los Condes or any of the other rich nieghborhoods. Anytime the protesters have gotten close, suddenly the police or military were all over it.

What has been happening in Chile (since at least 2010 earthquake) in a slow drip, drip fashion for about 10+ years, is the rich and upper middle class have been either leaving Santiago outright, or at least establishing a second "vacation" home in other parts of chile. In particular southern chile. That is just going to accelerate.

For instance, the rapid growth of wealth concentration in Los lagos, is not an accident; neither is the consistent low unemployment in the region.

we had two or three airplanes a day 10 years ago. I think they are flying like 20+ direct flights to Santiago a day now; and it is not just tickets have gotten cheaper. we got at least three airlines flying.

We started 2019 with zero chilean relocation clients in our buisness, now I have kind of lost track of the number of internal, chilean, relocation clients we have acquired. That was before the protests started. Most, by the way, are wealthy doctors from the central region. fine with me, we need the specialist down here. I never really thought of that as a potential market for us. They found us.

the north east part of Santiago will become more exclusive. There will probably always be some rich or at least new rich there. prices will go up there, as people flee the instability and insecurity of the other parts of Santiago. kind of a shame, as there had been a bit of urban renewal in the works more towards dowtown. That is over with, probably for good.

much of the rest of Santiago will get ghettofied.

The rich, say top 10 or 20% of the country, they will abandon Santiago. Those that do not need to be at an office everyday; and eventually the offices and headquarters will follow them.

With them will go the power and influence. finally, we might start seeing real decentralization take hold. more money and government projects will get directed to the parts of chile they decide to move to.

so yea, in short, the poor are going to get screwed. the only question is how hard.

They will be abandoned to enjoy burning and looting the crumbling over stressed infrastructure of the cities.

I would be very surprised, if there is not some sort of political reform out of this that formalizes the decentralization of chile. either via a constitutional or simple legal reform, that gives significantly more financial and political autonomy to the regions.

The irony is, after over a 100 years of the regions complaining about the political and financial wealth of the country being concentrated in Santiago, they will finally get their wish; because that wealth and power is moving out of Santiago.
You bring up a point that I had begun to comment on a couple of times and thought nah. Decentralization
Chile is long overdue for a second santiago in the south. No other city comes close to approximating santiago on so many levels. Logistically chile geography most demands perhaps more than any other country in the entire world that needs to not be sucking at the teat of a single city. Many know Chile is long and narrow but they dont really grasp the scale of it all and how it affects distribution which is just the tip of that iceberg versus a square or circle shaped country with a central monolithic capital that even tries badly to be equidistant from all points. It's the sheer length of chile that is the kicker

Santiago is a single point of failure.

Whether its distribution logistics, political power concentration, or density of flaite circle jerks, or fill in the blank

A second city needs to arise in the south that can be a white collar hub on par(really on par in every way that counts on the good side) with Santiago. Ideally an existing city, somewhere close to between Puerto montt and Los Angeles any more north from LA and it's too close to Santiago. Any more south from Puerto montt and it's too far away to be practical. Also not close to the coast (again like santiago) and subject to coastal risks

At any rate, would definiatley be longterm, but is likely inevitable if the current trend of rich flight continues even if there isnt enough strategy to proactively grow a true southern Santiago but it ends up de facto.

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hlf2888
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by hlf2888 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:30 pm

mem wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:48 pm
admin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 pm
oh, please this is how this works in Chile, and it is just exactly how it works anywhere in the world.

The rich will simply isolate themselves from the poor. They do it everywhere from Beijing, to Bellair, to Martha's vineyard. In latin america, especially in the more dangerous countries, the "rich" part of the city turns in to a whole separate country. I hear, even as big a socialist mess as Venezuela is, the rich part of Caracas is working just fine.

In chile, for example, please take note that there has not been one major incident, or even significant protest, allowed in to Los Condes or any of the other rich nieghborhoods. Anytime the protesters have gotten close, suddenly the police or military were all over it.

What has been happening in Chile (since at least 2010 earthquake) in a slow drip, drip fashion for about 10+ years, is the rich and upper middle class have been either leaving Santiago outright, or at least establishing a second "vacation" home in other parts of chile. In particular southern chile. That is just going to accelerate.

For instance, the rapid growth of wealth concentration in Los lagos, is not an accident; neither is the consistent low unemployment in the region.

we had two or three airplanes a day 10 years ago. I think they are flying like 20+ direct flights to Santiago a day now; and it is not just tickets have gotten cheaper. we got at least three airlines flying.

We started 2019 with zero chilean relocation clients in our buisness, now I have kind of lost track of the number of internal, chilean, relocation clients we have acquired. That was before the protests started. Most, by the way, are wealthy doctors from the central region. fine with me, we need the specialist down here. I never really thought of that as a potential market for us. They found us.

the north east part of Santiago will become more exclusive. There will probably always be some rich or at least new rich there. prices will go up there, as people flee the instability and insecurity of the other parts of Santiago. kind of a shame, as there had been a bit of urban renewal in the works more towards dowtown. That is over with, probably for good.

much of the rest of Santiago will get ghettofied.

The rich, say top 10 or 20% of the country, they will abandon Santiago. Those that do not need to be at an office everyday; and eventually the offices and headquarters will follow them.

With them will go the power and influence. finally, we might start seeing real decentralization take hold. more money and government projects will get directed to the parts of chile they decide to move to.

so yea, in short, the poor are going to get screwed. the only question is how hard.

They will be abandoned to enjoy burning and looting the crumbling over stressed infrastructure of the cities.

I would be very surprised, if there is not some sort of political reform out of this that formalizes the decentralization of chile. either via a constitutional or simple legal reform, that gives significantly more financial and political autonomy to the regions.

The irony is, after over a 100 years of the regions complaining about the political and financial wealth of the country being concentrated in Santiago, they will finally get their wish; because that wealth and power is moving out of Santiago.
You bring up a point that I had begun to comment on a couple of times and thought nah. Decentralization
Chile is long overdue for a second santiago in the south. No other city comes close to approximating santiago on so many levels. Logistically chile geography most demands perhaps more than any other country in the entire world that needs to not be sucking at the teat of a single city. Many know Chile is long and narrow but they dont really grasp the scale of it all and how it affects distribution which is just the tip of that iceberg versus a square or circle shaped country with a central monolithic capital that even tries badly to be equidistant from all points. It's the sheer length of chile that is the kicker

Santiago is a single point of failure.

Whether its distribution logistics, political power concentration, or density of flaite circle jerks, or fill in the blank

A second city needs to arise in the south that can be a white collar hub on par(really on par in every way that counts on the good side) with Santiago. Ideally an existing city, somewhere close to between Puerto montt and Los Angeles any more north from LA and it's too close to Santiago. Any more south from Puerto montt and it's too far away to be practical. Also not close to the coast (again like santiago) and subject to coastal risks

At any rate, would definiatley be longterm, but is likely inevitable if the current trend of rich flight continues even if there isnt enough strategy to proactively grow a true southern Santiago but it ends up de facto.
Isn't Concepcion that "second city" already? It is the second largest city in Chile. Are you thinking a third center?

mem
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:38 pm

hlf2888 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:30 pm
mem wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:48 pm
admin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 pm
oh, please this is how this works in Chile, and it is just exactly how it works anywhere in the world.

The rich will simply isolate themselves from the poor. They do it everywhere from Beijing, to Bellair, to Martha's vineyard. In latin america, especially in the more dangerous countries, the "rich" part of the city turns in to a whole separate country. I hear, even as big a socialist mess as Venezuela is, the rich part of Caracas is working just fine.

In chile, for example, please take note that there has not been one major incident, or even significant protest, allowed in to Los Condes or any of the other rich nieghborhoods. Anytime the protesters have gotten close, suddenly the police or military were all over it.

What has been happening in Chile (since at least 2010 earthquake) in a slow drip, drip fashion for about 10+ years, is the rich and upper middle class have been either leaving Santiago outright, or at least establishing a second "vacation" home in other parts of chile. In particular southern chile. That is just going to accelerate.

For instance, the rapid growth of wealth concentration in Los lagos, is not an accident; neither is the consistent low unemployment in the region.

we had two or three airplanes a day 10 years ago. I think they are flying like 20+ direct flights to Santiago a day now; and it is not just tickets have gotten cheaper. we got at least three airlines flying.

We started 2019 with zero chilean relocation clients in our buisness, now I have kind of lost track of the number of internal, chilean, relocation clients we have acquired. That was before the protests started. Most, by the way, are wealthy doctors from the central region. fine with me, we need the specialist down here. I never really thought of that as a potential market for us. They found us.

the north east part of Santiago will become more exclusive. There will probably always be some rich or at least new rich there. prices will go up there, as people flee the instability and insecurity of the other parts of Santiago. kind of a shame, as there had been a bit of urban renewal in the works more towards dowtown. That is over with, probably for good.

much of the rest of Santiago will get ghettofied.

The rich, say top 10 or 20% of the country, they will abandon Santiago. Those that do not need to be at an office everyday; and eventually the offices and headquarters will follow them.

With them will go the power and influence. finally, we might start seeing real decentralization take hold. more money and government projects will get directed to the parts of chile they decide to move to.

so yea, in short, the poor are going to get screwed. the only question is how hard.

They will be abandoned to enjoy burning and looting the crumbling over stressed infrastructure of the cities.

I would be very surprised, if there is not some sort of political reform out of this that formalizes the decentralization of chile. either via a constitutional or simple legal reform, that gives significantly more financial and political autonomy to the regions.

The irony is, after over a 100 years of the regions complaining about the political and financial wealth of the country being concentrated in Santiago, they will finally get their wish; because that wealth and power is moving out of Santiago.
You bring up a point that I had begun to comment on a couple of times and thought nah. Decentralization
Chile is long overdue for a second santiago in the south. No other city comes close to approximating santiago on so many levels. Logistically chile geography most demands perhaps more than any other country in the entire world that needs to not be sucking at the teat of a single city. Many know Chile is long and narrow but they dont really grasp the scale of it all and how it affects distribution which is just the tip of that iceberg versus a square or circle shaped country with a central monolithic capital that even tries badly to be equidistant from all points. It's the sheer length of chile that is the kicker

Santiago is a single point of failure.

Whether its distribution logistics, political power concentration, or density of flaite circle jerks, or fill in the blank

A second city needs to arise in the south that can be a white collar hub on par(really on par in every way that counts on the good side) with Santiago. Ideally an existing city, somewhere close to between Puerto montt and Los Angeles any more north from LA and it's too close to Santiago. Any more south from Puerto montt and it's too far away to be practical. Also not close to the coast (again like santiago) and subject to coastal risks

At any rate, would definiatley be longterm, but is likely inevitable if the current trend of rich flight continues even if there isnt enough strategy to proactively grow a true southern Santiago but it ends up de facto.
Isn't Concepcion that "second city" already?
No, it is not on par with santiago in the ways that matter currently. It could be the focus of growth and evolution as a second santiago. I would think a city more south and inland though makes more sense geographically. But even one in a less than optimal place...that was actually a second santiago would be better than what we have now

I'd say the best options would be one of either Puerto Montt, Temuco, and Los Angeles in that order of preference

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Zenth » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:43 pm

All Government services need to be made available throughout the country.

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fraggle092
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:06 pm

mem wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:48 pm

Chile is long overdue for a second santiago in the south. No other city comes close to approximating santiago on so many levels. Logistically chile geography most demands perhaps more than any other country in the entire world that needs to not be sucking at the teat of a single city. Many know Chile is long and narrow but they dont really grasp the scale of it all and how it affects distribution which is just the tip of that iceberg versus a square or circle shaped country with a central monolithic capital that even tries badly to be equidistant from all points. It's the sheer length of chile that is the kicker
Yes, it all makes logical sense ..from a gringo POV. If any country could benefit from decentralization, Chile would be the one. After all, even some Dinosaurs had two brains .

One of the reasons that Douglas Tompkins faced so much opposition in setting up Parque Pumalín was the suspicion that he intended to establish his own enclave, one that would bisect the country. Like most expats, to me that exploitative notion seemed absurd, but the fact that it was even brought up in Congress says quite a lot about what they thought a Chilean in Tompkins' situation could be capable of.

Devolved power just means more opportunities for corruption and abuse. Diego Portales was the architect of a strong and centralized government in order to establish maintain control for that reason-he knew the anarchic nature of his compatriots. Where some local power does exist at the municipal level, corruption is often rampant.

One reason for the government's enthusiastic implementation of increased internet access via fibre optics is to reinforce central government command and control....
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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tiagoabner
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by tiagoabner » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:26 pm

CNN's read on Piñera's interview to El Mercurio (in Spanish): https://www.cnnchile.com/pais/sebastian ... _20191109/
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

PXYC
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by PXYC » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:01 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:12 pm
Given the lessening posting, Pirahna is not the only one shutting down...

I have a bad feeling that tonight may be as bad as 18-O in shock value and I hope I'm wrong.

I too am checking out for the next so many hours <hic>... :P
It sure looked ugly at around 21pm in Providencia yesterday. After observing the more violent protesters from my window, I got the feeling they are on a sort of try-and-error-and-try until hitting jackpot (admittedly Costanera mall or other capitalist symbol), so I feel the progress of protests is totally random.

Anyway, with the stats being 50% less retail consumption, and retail being the breadwinner for so many people that also spend on other than retail, I wonder if the ones that don't want Piñera to resign just because there is not a likable alternative, or because there is some moral lesson to be proven against protesters, still have the same opinion. It's a matter of common sense, if a president is the spark that's keeping all this fire, he should have resigned since the beginning!

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:09 pm

admin wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 pm
oh, please this is how this works in Chile, and it is just exactly how it works anywhere in the world.

The rich will simply isolate themselves from the poor. They do it everywhere from Beijing, to Bellair, to Martha's vineyard. In latin america, especially in the more dangerous countries, the "rich" part of the city turns in to a whole separate country. I hear, even as big a socialist mess as Venezuela is, the rich part of Caracas is working just fine.
I don't think it was quite the same in Venezuela, as they changed ideology and private businesses were stolen by the government. A lot of then had to up and leave Venezuela before it imploded. We have some friends who owned a buisiness there, they escaped to Italy as had Italian passports from ancestors and now live in the UK. They lost everything, their homes and buisiness and live a relatively modest life in Europe.

But under the current politics of Chile, and foreseeable I completely agree with you. This whole situation has shafted the most vunerable lower and middle classes.

So yesterday not only did they set a university on fire, they also pulled benches and pews out of a church and set them alight in a road block. That's a new level of anarchy.

It also looks like the level of graffiti has gone mad in urban areas. Can people confirm this?

We are trying to work out if we need a exit strategy for our relatives if things go really bad. And will they close land boarders if the airport gets closed again, we're thinking to Argentina by land would be the most reliable exit route from Santiago. Sounds extreme. But...

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:19 pm

Badbadbad wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:56 pm
I've seen at least two videos on twitter about civilians armed with pistols, one got detained by the police. Things are getting out of hand when people have to arm themselves when going outside. And both cases are in Santiago too
Pistols are quite common in Santiago, even though gun licensing has been tightened a lot. Why do you think all the Carabineros are armed.

I saw someone shoot at PDI office in Providencia about five years ago. A shoot out between a man and carabineros at an attempted bank robbery around the same time in Centro. A car get boxed in and car jacked by armed assailants on Vespucio North autopista. And numerous other incidents in suburbs.

They said if you were one of the people who still have a gun license you are quite likely to have your house burgled at night specifically to take the gun, for criminal gang use.

Robberies with guns and other weapons often could involve minors too as they would get a much more lenient sentence as they are so inoccent, it's their parents fault I guess they figure.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:24 pm

Anyone know how easy or not it is to rent lodging on a passing through cargo ship?
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:38 pm

Colegio Don Orione on fire. No further information of cause, bomberos responding.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by RuneTheChookcha » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:46 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:24 pm
Anyone know how easy or not it is to rent lodging on a passing through cargo ship?
They tend to be astronomically expensive, and less than comfortable. A while ago I did a research on the subject, but lost all the links/info, unfortunately.

They may charge somewhere in the 120 - 150 euro range (per person, per day), if memory serves, but it would not be easy to book for a short route, usually it must be quite a journey, about 3 or 4 weeks.

https://www.langsamreisen.de/en/freight ... h-america/

https://www.freighterexpeditions.com.au ... -days-copy

https://voyagesencargo.com/lines/cargo- ... th-america

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