State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

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vamoschile
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by vamoschile » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Anyone know what we can expect in forms of protests this weekend?

El Ping
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by El Ping » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:15 pm

Arrived in Montt yesterday morning.... uneventful trip down from Stiago.
Took a bus from Club Nautico to the Unimarc at the far end of the Costanera to buy some vittles.... a bit of a crowd in the Plaza... that was about it.
This morning took a bus to the Terminus de Buses and debarked there.... walked from there along Antonio Varas and up to Jumbo.

Observations... no graffiti or signs of any property damage in Angelmo... including all the small artesenal shops which are open as normal.. even two tourist buses yesterday...

No sign of any damage along Antonio Varas... a few farmacias and an Electronica Real shuttered but open. More signs of action after passing MacDonalds/Dresden Bar corner... all banks shuttered, Banco Estado looking a bit scorched.... Plaza empty as noted by Admin, graffiti galore on some buildings but not others..... no sign of damage in the plaza.

Had a bloke tell me yesterday all the ATMs had been stolen from the banks and burnt in the streets... a mate of his in Lima had seen it on the TV news... nothing like a good rumour.... Had also heard Jumbo had been sacked... it hadn't....

lost gringo
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by lost gringo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:17 pm

Flew PMC to SCL yesterday afternoon, plane was half full, usually packed.
SCL very calm, everything seemed normal, no protesters, no police or army presence altho there may have been outside the airport entrance. Probably half the number of usual travelers. PDI was practically empty. Pretty surreal.
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Dosedmonkey
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:25 pm

hlf2888 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:31 pm
For a start, no IVA on food and free medications for those getting a sueldo less than 500,000 por mes, free higher education for all who qualify academically, minimum pension 300,000 por mes, free subway and bus for all students and seniors, free water for all Chile...no selling water to multinationals, rent control, decent low income housing and senior's homes, rehaul the whole judicial system, tax the rich and the corporations at higher rates, drastically cut the salaries and pensions of all politicians to pay for some of these changes, sue and or jail the polluters. It's a sincere beginning and would stop the crisis.
I think your maths is way out there. Just a couple of those things would take up any tax revenue from the elite. There isn't that many of them compared to the population who would be using all this free stuff.

Improve primary and secondary education. Offer scholarships to exceptional students to go to university sure.

Reduce IVA on food perhaps, but just half it. I don't think people really would notice the change anyway.

Free water, well that would be a good way to encourage water waste, every person would have a massive swimming pool before the next weekend. Reduce the price sure.

Free bus and train for elderly, sure they are immobile.
For students, no they will cycle less, and also will use the system a lot more, better give them half rate.

Housing will always just be housing in Chile. By my standers even middle class and wealthy housing was pretty poorly built in Santiago. That's just building standards, much of which minor corruption meant houses certified that shouldn't be.

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fraggle092
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:29 pm

hlf2888 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:31 pm
For a start, no IVA on food and free medications for those getting a sueldo less than 500,000 por mes, free higher education for all who qualify academically, minimum pension 300,000 por mes, free subway and bus for all students and seniors, free water for all Chile...no selling water to multinationals, rent control, decent low income housing and senior's homes, rehaul the whole judicial system, tax the rich and the corporations at higher rates, drastically cut the salaries and pensions of all politicians to pay for some of these changes, sue and or jail the polluters. It's a sincere beginning and would stop the crisis.
Great, all very noble goals. But who is going to pay for it all, the Capitalist Exploiters of the downtrodden masses?
There aren't enough of them, and you can bet that their filthy lucre is already heading for the door.

The quick solution is either to spend the national reserves or borrow money. That doesn't work too well long-term :)
Piñera just tried, and got "knocked back" by Congress as this was considered fiscally irresponsible.

Here's a list of possible sources of additional revenue, done very quickly..
  • Drastic reduction of all Government salaries and elimination of additional bonuses/perks.
    Regional/Municipal taxes ,with less Central Govt. assistance. (Yeah, Devolution! :lol: )
    Regional/Municipal salaries paid from local taxes.
    Contributions on all properties wth an RV greater than $40.000.000, w/reductions/exemptions for the needy.
    Realistic Contributions on all parcelas incorporating a dwelling as above.
    Holiday/second homes taxed at higher rates.
    Vacant sites taxed at higher rates.
    Offshore banking and investment accounts,levy 27% tax on personal capital exported thereafter on capital gains.
    Increased fuel taxes.
    Increased road tax on private vehicles > 2.5L displacement. Call it a "Green" tax. :)
    Tax internet use at a higher IVA rate.
    Increase IVA to 22%. Or 2-tier IVA. Exemptions for prescription medicines, domestic utilities.
Just waiting for the howls of outrage!
The problem here is that everybody wants stuff, but they don't want to pay for it.
The masses have deluded themselves into believing that they are all too poor.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:37 pm

Fuel tax is already a descent amount in Chile, considering the distances involved in travelling in Chile you'd have to be careful with that.

Better off taxing alcohol and tobacco more under the health premise, and directly put that money in to improve public hospitals.

Can they put it in the constitution that emergency vehicles only use flashing lights in an emergency, that would seriously help ambulances in Santiago rescue people. And also just force a national ambulance service, that all people use, whether they have public or private healthcare, as currently waiting for an ambulance must kill more people then the protests have. This can be funded by health insurance.

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fraggle092
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:44 pm

Dosedmonkey wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:37 pm
Fuel tax is already a descent amount in Chile, considering the distances involved in travelling in Chile you'd have to be careful with that.

Better off taxing alcohol and tobacco more under the health premise, and directly put that money in to improve public hospitals.

Can they put it in the constitution that emergency vehicles only use flashing lights in an emergency, that would seriously help ambulances in Santiago rescue people. And also just force a national ambulance service, that all people use, whether they have public or private healthcare, as currently waiting for an ambulance must kill more people then the protests have. This can be funded by health insurance.
This has nothing much to do with the Constitution, that kind of stuff is addressed by legislation, Law. As were a lot of the proposals I "suggested".
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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:55 pm

So the clock is ticking, how many hours before the masses realize all this media attention of a new constitution doesn't address jack about any of their urgent specific concerns and demands?
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

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mem
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:46 pm

As several have pointed regarding the various suggestions. The devil is in the details.

Without even getting into the weeds on those details as others have, I would just cut to the chase with the last 5 words

"...and would stop the crisis."

I don't think so. The 2's and 3's wont care. They don't want the lawless holiday of chaos to end.

It is easy...too easy...to think "if only the government would do X for the 1's"...this would all just go away

I guess I would put forth this metaphor as a thought. A married couple that has begun to fight all the time. Wife assumes it is her fault, tries to tiptoe around the husband, tries to do things for him to restore the sweetness of their marriage, but the husband keeps picking fights regardless. It is exhausting. Nothing changes. After trying everything else, the wife thinks that maybe if they have a baby it will fix the marriage and restore the sweetness of their relationship and family.

So she has a baby but things just keep getting worse and now the child is raised in a dysfunctional home. She finds out years later that the husband didn't even care at all. Because he was cheating on her with prostitutes the whole time spending the family's savings on high end escorts. She was trying to fix the wrong problem
When the family's savings is utterly spent, he divorces her and leaves her to raise the child alone.

Just to be clear...The only hard direct correlation is the cheating husband. He embodies the 2's and 3's. There is no direct correlation for the 1's

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41southchile
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:55 pm

vamoschile wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:05 pm
Anyone know what we can expect in forms of protests this weekend?
Humm, not really, let's hope no more innocents deaths due to the mindless behavior of criminals. 2 deaths I heard of today, one case blocking firemen getting to a house fire in Osorno where a young girl died and may have been saved if firemen were not occupied elsewhere and roads were not blocked getting there and they had to go the long way. Or the guy whose truck crashed killing him after he hit a metal barrier placed across ruta 5 norte, leaving behind a wife and son. It's not short term pain for those families that's for sure.
So no not sure what will happen this weekend, here's hoping for something different from the last few days.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. - Darwin

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:59 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:44 pm

This has nothing much to do with the Constitution, that kind of stuff is addressed by legislation, Law. As were a lot of the proposals I "suggested".
Oh yeah, I realise. That's why I said further back I really don't see how a new constitution will solve anything. Although technically you could put anything in the constitution. America's got the right to bare arms. So the right to a unified ambulance service isn't that far off. Kidding. Haha.


Just been trawling the videos from last night. A man stops on his bicycle in the road and I think he is basically saying why are the Carabineros hurting the population or some such, and the Carabinero just walks up and then either fires something off in his face or hits him in the head with a baton, grainy footage and strange noise, so hard to tell. Anyway he is down on the floor and Carabinero calmly walks off as people witnessing it are in shock.

Then other footage of Carabinero station in La Victoria getting heavily Molotov attacked, fires on all side of its small compound. Luckily it seems to be made of mostly tin and concrete, so not much to catch on fire. Under siege big style though, they have the gates closed, just waiting inside with their gear on. I think they would of been justified killing assailants in that instance, but it didn't appear to cross their minds.

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Dosedmonkey
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:06 pm

mem wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:46 pm

Just to be clear...The only hard direct correlation is the cheating husband. He embodies the 2's and 3's. There is no direct correlation for the 1's
In your metaphor the solution would be for her to leave him. But how does a country leave certain people.

You need to reform them. Education and judicial surely. So the metaphor falls apart in that sense. A less your saying round them all up and take the. To a remote detention camp. But I would suggest there is too many people for that solution, let alone human rights implications.

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