State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

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ExpatBob
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm

Huelshoff wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:38 pm
As a US citizen, I'd like to think that we all don't need psychological exams when we leave the country, but I will admit that this guy might be the exception that encourages the rule. I did a bit of reading on this guy. He has his PhD in law and Austrian economics (a debatable term) from George Mason University. The econ program at George Mason was bought up by the Koch brothers some years ago, who have been widely reported as exercising control over faculty hires. To give you an idea of the sort of academics they hire, one of the professors in the department recently brought attention to himself by taking sides with so-called "incels," or people who identify as "involuntarily celibate" after one committed mass murder in frustration for being unable to get a date. I couldn't follow the guy's logic, but the upshot of the argument was that women should be required to have sex with men.

I am not suggesting that Cobin buys into such ridiculous arguments, or that all econ professors at George Mason do, but this is the sort of logic that comes out of the hyper-libertarian focus on individual rights of people like Cobin and is taught at George Mason. It is not a long step from pulling your gun out and shooting up some protesters to protect your individual rights (one thing that caught my attention was that in his online statement he said he was firing to scare them away--and hitting one in the thigh) and the sovereign citizen movement in the US. You can read about sovereign citizens online, but in short they don't believe that they are subject to US law, including things like paying taxes and observing traffic laws. It involves flags, convoluted ways to say I, and secret gold accounts--I don't pretend to follow the argument. Yet sovereign citizens have a distressing tendency to start gunfights when police pulling them over for traffic violations, all in defense of protecting their "right" to drive without a license plate.

I taught political economy for 35 years, more or less, and am quite familiar with libertarian thought. There are lots of different versions of it, and not all lead to the extreme positions taken by Cobin in his Clinic interview, and not all lead one to violence in a deluded attempt to protect one's individual rights. Yet some do. I thought I was leaving this stuff behind when I came to Chile, even neo-liberal Chile.
Preamble: I'm not looking to start a flame war. But this is so head-up-butt I feel moved to comment.
Straw man after straw man here. Just because a couple of wackos come out of ANY educational institution in the USA does not make George Mason a hive of libertarian brainwashing. And sovereign citizen wackos do like to get into arguments with police but "tendency to start gunfights" is way hyperbolic. If we're going to have an intelligent conversation here about these things, you've got to stop putting "I couldn't follow the guy's logic" to dismiss something followed by stuff like "am quite familiar with libertarian thought" while claiming to be an intelligent professor. It doesn't add up.
Cobin is a creep. Met him once. He's "odd" to say the least, and the people around him were insane (one of which explained he left the USA because gays were allowed to get married-- talk about the dumbest reason ever to leave a stable life in your homeland!)
In many ways I do side with Cobin on this but also in many ways I do not. There is so much built up fear from these "protesters" (yes, in quotes, because destruction of things does not equal protest) that I think they deserve threatening action right back at them-- if they are going to endanger property and lives, why should they do so at no personal risk to themselves? If you've seen what these mobs do, IMHO you'd be perfectly just in handing deadly force right back at them. People who sling molotovs into buses and buildings deserve death.
There are so many facets to the protests, sure, you can't lump them ALL into one single group, but perhaps the serious ones should take a step back and clarify their positions instead of continuing the destruction, so that it is obvious that they are not part of the looting and burning. Until that point, it's all just teenage angst and rebellion without cause.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:26 pm

hlf2888 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:40 pm
And there is a youtube video filmed from a balcony above his truck which shows nobody touching, or within 10 feet of his truck when he assumed a shooter stance and started firing to hit or kill. I TOTALLY EMPHATICALLY DISAGREE with the message, "nuestro heroe John Cobin", probably made by one of his followers, but the video shows that his life was NOT in imminent danger when he fired to kill or harm.

I hope the prosecution uses this video. At 1:19 minutes if you want to skip the cult style propaganda of his followers. They are saturating youtube with videos praising this idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u56QAzemB0g
Do look at the first 1.19 minutes, dont skip it, businesses , homes destroyed , not in this video but I've seen a women driving school Van with toddlers coming home from Kindy attacked by criminals with rocks and pleading to be let through, they didnt and dont give a shit . While I certainly wouldn't admire him in that way or know anyone that would be condoning him, I can actually understand why people are praising him , in their feelings of impotence , despair, and whatever else.
Now all they see is someone getting all the attention and full force of the law after him while the criminals carry on destroying more and more stuff every day with impunity.
It's the friggin law of the jungle,m out there in those street situations , and those supporting him? Well rational people will sometimes react irrationally when under stress, maybe the support for him is an emotional outlet now their world has been completely turned upside down.
He will find, and has found a lot of support, ordinary people, and sadly in the current state we are in that's hardly surprising.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

After that video he made about shooting communist and protesters in the face, I haven't seen anyone tick all the definitions for "premeditated murder" so much since those ISIS videos recorded before their attacks. Just the isis guys are not around after to make a confession video to go with it.

Had this been the u.s., any state, on top of a pile of charges at the state level, they would be piling on federal terrorism and hate crime charges too.

I think the police should definitely be taking a harder hand against the guys throwing molotov cocktails at the police, or in the act of committing arson, etc; etc but, the police, with a clear set of rules of engagement and laws to follow about the use of force. Not vigilantes wondering around the streets on sunday afternoon shooting in too a crowd at random.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Ignite » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:46 pm

So, if you are trying to get from point A to point B and a crowd stops you and the only way to get through is to "dance" otherwise they'll trash your car, yeah, trying to humiliate people as part of their fun.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 pm

Is it understood that this escalated when he was asked/told to "get out of the car and dance with us to show your support of the protesters"? (while blocking his car?)

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Huelshoff » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:05 pm

ExpatBob wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:50 pm


Preamble: I'm not looking to start a flame war. But this is so head-up-butt I feel moved to comment.
Straw man after straw man here. Just because a couple of wackos come out of ANY educational institution in the USA does not make George Mason a hive of libertarian brainwashing. And sovereign citizen wackos do like to get into arguments with police but "tendency to start gunfights" is way hyperbolic. If we're going to have an intelligent conversation here about these things, you've got to stop putting "I couldn't follow the guy's logic" to dismiss something followed by stuff like "am quite familiar with libertarian thought" while claiming to be an intelligent professor. It doesn't add up.
I'm not interested in a flame war either, but the influence of the Koch Brothers at George Mason is pretty widely reported in the US, and is certainly well known in academic circles. Several articles in places like the Chronicle of Higher Education, etc. The Mercatus Center at George Mason describes itself as focused on market-oriented solutions to public policy, and includes graduate programs. In his CV, Cobin describes himself as having studied at the Center. As I suggested in my comment, not everyone who teaches or goes through the place is a kook. Yet I have seen the way the Koch Bros. use their money to try to get their ideas into the mainstream, including at my former university right before I retired, and witnessed some of the intellectual dishonesty associated with their money. PM me if you want details.

You are right, not all sovereign citizens get into gun fights with the police--yet there have been several cases where they have, and I did use the word tendency. Many seem to wind up in jail due to tax evasion or writing bad checks. As the admin pointed out, the FBI considers them a terrorist organization.

I did not describe myself as an intelligent professor, but did imply that I was a professor. Being a professor doesn't make me any more capable of following someone's logic than anyone else. I guess I am implying that there wasn't much logic there, although recognizing that such interpretations are just that. Anyone can look up the case and make their own judgement as to the merits of the argument.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:37 pm

well the Washington post picked up the story, if anyone has a subscription.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... utType=amp

will take them a while, but I am sure the international press will be all over this shortly. This story has fox news written all over it.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:46 pm

stories are starting trickle in to the international media:

https://amp.theage.com.au/world/south-a ... 539nc.html
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:55 pm

admin wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Had this been the u.s., any state, on top of a pile of charges at the state level, they would be piling on federal terrorism and hate crime charges too.
Had this been the US, any state, there would be a lot of dead terrorist rockthrowers and arsonists. The restraint of the Carabineros and the citizenry is simply amazing (and honestly a bit disappointing)

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by hlf2888 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:12 pm

ExpatBob wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:55 pm
admin wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Had this been the u.s., any state, on top of a pile of charges at the state level, they would be piling on federal terrorism and hate crime charges too.
Had this been the US, any state, there would be a lot of dead terrorist rockthrowers and arsonists. The restraint of the Carabineros and the citizenry is simply amazing (and honestly a bit disappointing)
Honestly, ExpatBob, If you are disappointed, why not go to the US instead of trying to instill and promote their twisted value system here?

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:15 pm

here was the "dangerous mob" that attacked him the mins before, that he then turned around and shot.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4tBgecJKjY/

I have seen more dangerous crowds at classic music concerts.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:18 pm

So some friggin dickhead tried to light a fire at the Puerto Puerto Varas cathedral while there was a mass going on inside (admittedly it was the most pathetic arson attempt I have possibly ever seen, not that I have seen many) and he gets ..... home arrest, at nighttime, and not allowed near the church while the investigation is ongoing, yet he can now hone his skills and try another building? Yes I can understand why the state wants to crack down and make an example of vigilantes but I can understand how so many have simply lost faith in the state to maintain and impose order and see John whatevr his name is, as a hero and inspiration.
As I said that is the sadsest part and the most dangerous aspect, even more dangerous than what he did, I think he would know how to shoot to kill? maybe that was the idea🤔

https://www.soychile.cl/Puerto-Montt/Po ... iario.aspx
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