State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

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mem
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 pm

at46 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:15 pm
Sr. El Puelche wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:27 pm
at the very least turn it over and burn them alive inside.
###
Ja-ja, if that's what happens at the very least, what would be a notch up? How about two notches?
I suppose it's possible, but what I saw in that video was a few criminals attacking police. And then there were several dozen non criminals lemming around in a crowd just being there, maybe shouting, maybe banging a pan, etc

I would expect that if the police shot a guy or two in the arm or leg for attacking them, tearing off their door, etc the 95% would disperse and the baddies would be going to jail (possibly hospital first)

At any rate, hopefully the army reservists will have some cajones and not just play footsie with the criminals. The only reason this stuff is still going on is because law enforcement has softshoed it.
So its "partytime" for criminals instead of "shooting gallery"

I agree about the counter productivity of long term military involvement but it's getting late in the timeline. This should have been dealt with more severely in the first 48 hours. Instead of this protracted footsie game

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by at46 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:31 pm

mem wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 pm
at46 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:15 pm
Sr. El Puelche wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:27 pm
at the very least turn it over and burn them alive inside.
###
Ja-ja, if that's what happens at the very least, what would be a notch up? How about two notches?
I suppose it's possible, but what I saw in that video was a few criminals attacking police. And then there were several dozen non criminals lemming around in a crowd just being there, maybe shouting, maybe banging a pan, etc

I would expect that if the police shot a guy or two in the arm or leg for attacking them, tearing off their door, etc the 95% would disperse and the baddies would be going to jail (possibly hospital first)

At any rate, hopefully the army reservists will have some cajones and not just play footsie with the criminals. The only reason this stuff is still going on is because law enforcement has softshoed it.
So its "partytime" for criminals instead of "shooting gallery"

I agree about the counter productivity of long term military involvement but it's getting late in the timeline. This should have been dealt with more severely in the first 48 hours. Instead of this protracted footsie game
Totally agree. The nanas should start bolting on both balls on their generals in the mornings instead of just one.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:37 pm

But what does the media hammer in all day today, oh the injustice of the use of force, human rights are being violated, watch out or the INDH will take you to court and send you to Pueco malditos fachitas.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:37 pm

at46 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:22 pm
admin wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:12 pm
well there is a classic military formula or rule of thumb, believe it was even mentioned in the 'art of war'. the longer you keep troops in policing rolls of civilian population, the more demoralized they become, and the greater the abuses, leading to ever increasing levels of civilian resentment towards the occupying force. history is full of them.
Chilean army is not the occupying force here, so totally inaplicable. But reinforcing it with local militia units made up of residents that are already spontaineously springing up might be a good idea if things don't calm down soon.
by any other name, it is functionally an occupying force of a civilian population. The basic rules of war don't change, because of labels being used.

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41southchile
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:40 pm

SCL wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:38 pm
...'' they are the kids of house keepers, gardeners, etc....'''

You Sound like a benevolent English lord...Admirable....[Is this the Chilean version of "Upstairs/Downstairs?]
You reckon? I just took it to mean nearly EVERYONE is sick of the shit, this is NOT a class struggle, the average Joe or Jose (or Josefina) just doesn't want to be shat on anymore and wants a level playing field, there are more good people than bad which makes me hopeful. There are many from ALL walks of life that want things to return to some sense of normal day to day life, they dont want their supermarkets destroyed or their plazas and parks. Same thing happened in Llanquihue as Frutillar they tried to attack the local unimarc, young punks the small shopkeeper told me, cops kicked their ass and sent them packing, she was very happy about that, that was Monday night, last night was quiet apart from a bit of stone throwing.
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41southchile
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:49 pm

mem wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 pm
at46 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:15 pm
Sr. El Puelche wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:27 pm
at the very least turn it over and burn them alive inside.
###
Ja-ja, if that's what happens at the very least, what would be a notch up? How about two notches?
I suppose it's possible, but what I saw in that video was a few criminals attacking police. And then there were several dozen non criminals lemming around in a crowd just being there, maybe shouting, maybe banging a pan, etc

I would expect that if the police shot a guy or two in the arm or leg for attacking them, tearing off their door, etc the 95% would disperse and the baddies would be going to jail (possibly hospital first)

At any rate, hopefully the army reservists will have some cajones and not just play footsie with the criminals. The only reason this stuff is still going on is because law enforcement has softshoed it.
So its "partytime" for criminals instead of "shooting gallery"

I agree about the counter productivity of long term military involvement but it's getting late in the timeline. This should have been dealt with more severely in the first 48 hours. Instead of this protracted footsie game
I think that's basically the idea, the reservists are general members of the public and were trained in a different era, back in the 90s, they didnt receive the same "training" as those in the streets at the moment, they are old school. It's being sold to the media as being able to give current troops a break🤔.
However the first wave of reservists is not happening till Monday, I guess they are still trying to look for solutions that will not unleash that much bloodshed . Which is why they didn't go hard straight away, let public anger build up against the criminals some more then they have more of a free reign and they cant be accused of cracking down too soon. Hold on everyone.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Sr. El Puelche » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:17 pm

MEM & AT46-------you could be right but I doubt it. Opening the door on the cop van, bending it back, throwing rocks and other debris inside along with a tear gas grenade-----at one point trying to push the van over. Thats crazy bold and unbelievable no body got a double tap in the chest for it. Surprised they did not throw the debris on fire nearby under the van.

I have been a photo-journalist for just over 20 years-----have covered probably dozens of protests and riots (if not several hundred) in several different countries----ANTIFA being the latest flavor of the moment----it becomes mob rule and people loose their sense of self in it especially when confronted with extreme force where the situation is very much to their favor-----It was just the van-------now FFEE came up and they dispersed but they were along with that van for a good 8 to 10 minutes with no one backing those pacos in the van. An aggressor goes down and all the nanas, good word!, feel it and want to take part-----its their chance and its what they are waiting for. Now having been there, you can feel it when it turns-----hard to tell from the video and being there but that was close----if the FFEE did not come in, it would have been a few minutes more and boom.

Glad it not come to anything more than a bashed up van and probably some cuts and bruises for the cops.


To ADD-----My point is the the military and the Carbineros don't have the manpower to put this down across the board all over Chile without the decision to make it very, very, serious-------I would say law enforcement in Chile at this moment knows this instinctively on their own and as well have not been given elevated rules on engagement officially-----no one wants to make that decision----so, its just poo-poo it along for now.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:33 pm

mem wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 pm
'... it's getting late in the timeline. This should have been dealt with more severely in the first 48 hours. Instead of this protracted footsie game
This government has an absolute phobia of being accused of Human Rights violations. That's how these assholes get away with tormenting the police; they know a cop will lose his job (or end up in jail) if he responds to the provocation in any way.

Piñera has been an assiduous practitioner of Buenismo. Big mistake. He was elected precisely as a reaction to the country's leftward drift towards Chilezuela, and he hasn't tried to do anything. No balls.

He apologized to the rioters, not to the millions of unfortunates who are now facing real hardship thanks to the actions of a selfish MINORITY. A completely pathetic performance.

And Iturrieta will carry the can if the use of serious force becomes necessary.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by at46 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:00 am

admin wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:37 pm
at46 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:22 pm
admin wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:12 pm
well there is a classic military formula or rule of thumb, believe it was even mentioned in the 'art of war'. the longer you keep troops in policing rolls of civilian population, the more demoralized they become, and the greater the abuses, leading to ever increasing levels of civilian resentment towards the occupying force. history is full of them.
Chilean army is not the occupying force here, so totally inaplicable. But reinforcing it with local militia units made up of residents that are already spontaineously springing up might be a good idea if things don't calm down soon.
by any other name, it is functionally an occupying force of a civilian population. The basic rules of war don't change, because of labels being used.
From what I understand, once called up reservists are part of the military and work in support roles wherever the military sends them. Local militia made up of volunteering residents is eyes on the ground patrolling their specific neighbourhoods with the right to detain and hold trouble-makers for the carabineros. This is what full engagement of the civil society looks like. If nobody shows up for the patrolling duty, then that's the sign of a collapsing society and you'd better start driving over the Andes. Unfortunately, this grassroots militia is basically non-existant in Chile as an organization, from what I can see. Normally, it's part of the structure of the state even though most people don't remember about it coz it's never needed. Fortunately for Chile, spontaineous militia units have sprung up and so you can unpack your bags.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:07 am

.
At least Brasil is paying attention. Maybe they can lend Chile some "peacekeepers".
.
Bolsonaro dice que el Ejército brasileño está listo.jpg
También este miércoles, el general Augusto Heleno Ribeiro, ministro del Gabinete de Seguridad Institucional de la Presidencia, culpó del estallido social en Chile a los movimientos de "izquierda radical". "En Sudamérica estamos viviendo un momento difícil en el que la izquierda radical, desesperada por la derrota, se lo jugará todo para agitar la vida de los países de la región. Intentará regresar al poder de cualquier manera y llevarnos al abismo que nosotros paramos", dijo el ministro vía Twitter.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Sr. El Puelche » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:11 am

Fraggle-----You have it right----two parts to the softness------One is they won't do it because of human rights and nobody wants to end up in the Hague in a special suit but also, they don't have the history of it, so no experience with it and how nonchalantly bring it about----you can always feel the softness in the opposing team and you take advantage of it.

Pinera does not have the cult of personality with the people and worse within the government and especially with the armed forces------the AF don't trust him and he won't throw them under the bus-----hard to follow that thinking the leader does not have your back. Pinera probably knows what to do but can't pull it off----he does not have the history. Playing with his helicopter and not forging a close network with everyone that matters.

The selfish minority----think of it, brother in laws, sisters, brothers, companeros de curse, wives, friends etc.... open and closed deals with all of them-----its a giant web of deals and pretty hard to go back on any of it----right or wrong, he can't find his way out of the web.

Now Iturrieta-----He has it coming-----couple things there-----He will take orders and possibly suggest a course of action. So he can accept it when the order comes for the unleashing of the military or he can resign-----Pinera probably already back channeling how far Iturietta is willing to go---well he will or he won't----Pinera probably already talking with other generals on a list that are willing to go the full measure. Maybe if it comes to that, it will be a couple generals they go through, one after the other. Generals are concerned----they have two or three stars and they want another and to be supreme commander-----they resign and they are out-----gotta be confident and sure you can pull it off and at the far end, be sure you can take the heat and your fellow officers corps will support you when it hits the fan.

Iturietta could also be asked or Pinera could be pressured to make iturietta provisional military commander of the country for a prescribed time in order to bring the country back------either way Iturietta is going to have to kick the can------follow orders and the consequences under Pinera, leave his status as commander of the Army and retirement as a weakling or take the heat in a provisional military government and take the heat------Heat will come domestically and maybe internationally if it hits the fan.

Better for Pinera to have kicked ass and in the calm, no apology and then begin reforms on minimum wage, IVA, health and retirement pensions as well as reducing political salries----not to punish but to put those monies into public benefits----even checks to every Chilean based on the value of national production and natural resources----In Norway you don't get a check but there is an allocated amount of benefits every citizen can access against it----at this moment every citizen has about 77 million USD in allocations.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Zenth » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:11 am

Sr. El Puelche is correct. My wife lost a friend to the soldiers during the early Pinochet years. He was out after curfew. The soldiers also shot a drunk in front of her grandmothers house who was out late and gave them some lip. Then they banged on the door and told grandmother and the aunt to go out and clean up the blood, etc. This was in Concepcion.
Today, the aunt cannot go outside. The markets are closed or have no basics like milk, flour, or eggs.
Still no real coverage in the USA.

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