The Damned Issue!

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fraggle092
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:02 pm

The Rance project generates 600 GWh/year. It operates at an average of 40% of its peak capacity; in fact in periods of slack water it produces nothing at all. The average is 96MW output from its 240 MW peak capacity.
HydroAysen is designed to produce 18,430 GW/year, that's 30 times more power - from 11 times the Rance installed generating capacity (2750MW) Hence a much better Capacity Factor. And it would produce that power 24/7.

If you upscale Rance by a factor of 30 (probably much more would be needed) to provide the equivalent amount of power, you are talking an awful lot of infrastructure dumped into the sea, and 3000Km of coastline notwithstanding, there are not that many suitable areas for tidal generator emplacement. And don´t forget the conventional backup generators needed to compensate for the idle time. The now abandoned Severn Barrage project was projected to provide electricity 8 hours a day.
As for "dual use", you design and build to optimize operation for a primary function, dual function invariably implies compromise and inefficiency.

To consider entrusting a nations future energy requirements to an unproven technology on a scale never attempted anywhere in the world, especially in the presence of sensible alternatives would be just plain frivolous.

And finally, If tidal power plants are so good, why then did the French not continue to build them, instead of all those nuclear plants?
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nwdiver
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by nwdiver » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:46 pm

Along with the southern Dams.

The discussions on grid intertie of home PV (or wind) systems are on going with the Government, the Energy Companies will have to be forced to deal with it as they are unapproachable. Prices for panels have dropped under $1 a watt (many high quality products at $1.15 watt) and the greatest output would be noon when the grid has its greatest pressure from AC in offices all over town. The recovery rate in BC Canada (a horrible place for PV) is down to 12-14 years and we have very cheap electricity. I see the recovery in Santiago going under 5 years as rates rise, its around 6-8 years now. 5 years to recover the investment on a system with a 20 year life span is pretty good. This could supply a portion of the summer day time requirement for the cities in Chile and some juice year round, they just need to allow it, but it’s Chile.
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nwdiver
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by nwdiver » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:57 pm

patagoniax wrote:
nwdiver wrote: and the greatest output would be noon when the grid has its greatest pressure from AC in offices all over town.
Right idea, wrong in real-world. Peak demand for electricity is usually not coincident with peak PV output. Overnight cooling latency effect tends to drive summer peak temps to around 2-4 hours or so after peak sun angles, though there are multiple factors involved and variation by location.


Of course, but Chileans crank up the AC a couple of hours before they need it “just to be ready” ;)
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greg~judy
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by greg~judy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:06 pm

well, the damned issue keeps on going and going - please, is anyone surprised?
now these lawsuits will ensure (at least) the bottom-feeders will reap some profits.
SIC and SING clearly demonstrate their woes and short-comings...
but projecting a 50% increase in generation by 2020...?
at this point, take that as a joke...
good luck to dr. copper and good luck to chile
:|
Suits against Chile energy projects hit investment:

(Reuters) - A spike in lawsuits against key energy projects in world No. 1 copper producer Chile is increasing already steep power prices and inhibiting investment, deputy energy minister Sergio del Campo told Reuters in an interview on Thursday.

Years of under-investment, a destructive 8.8 magnitude earthquake in 2010, droughts and the country's long, thin shape have debilitated Chile's power grid, drawing increasing fire from energy-intensive mining firms.

"The increase in appeals against projects, aside from delaying them, is influencing the increase in energy prices and is inhibiting investors," del Campo said. "It's definitely a barrier."

He said if two key embattled hydropower projects planned in the country's pristine Patagonia region fail to materialize, Chile might have to increase its thermoelectric generation or even mull nuclear power, even after quake-hit Japan's nuclear crisis doused nuclear power ambitions in Chile, one of the world's most seismically active countries.

The 2,750 megawatt, $3.2 billion HidroAysen project, owned by Colbun and Endesa, as well as $3.6 billion hydropower Energia Austral project, developed by Xstrata Copper and Australian energy retailer Origin Energy's have faced uphill battle against public opinion.

Environmental groups are increasingly opposing mega power projects ranging for coal-fired thermoelectric plants in Chile's northern Atacama, the world's driest desert, to hydropower dams in the wild southern Patagonia region.

Chile aims to send a bill to Congress to create a public energy transmission line and decide whether to link its two main electric grids in August, he added, in a bid to improve the country's shaky energy transmission system.

Connecting the country's south-central SIC grid, which over 90 percent of the population depends on, to the northern SING grid has not been deemed profitable in the past, he said.

The Andean country's power matrix has a capacity of 17,000 MW and the government aims to add another 8,000 MW by 2020.

While Chile is often held up as Latin America's economic model, many in the country feel left out of a copper bonanza that is seen having curtailed people's water and energy supplies and harmed the environment.

Chile is banking on attracting $100 billion in mining investment and propelling annual copper output to 7 million metric tons (7.71 million tons) by 2020, but miners are growing wary of spiraling costs and lack of power for new deposits or expansion of old ones.

SHORT TERM RELIEF IN ENERGY PRICES

Energy prices averaged $268 per megawatt hour in April, according to Chilean energy consulting firm Systep.

But power prices should fall in the short-term as two new thermoelectric plants are scheduled to come on line in July and September and rainfall picks up, del Campo said, forecasting diesel energy consumption will fall as a consequence.

Chile is heavily dependent on fossil fuel imports and hydropower for its energy generation.

Del Campo forecast spot energy prices could fall below $100 per MWh as of October, depending on rainfall levels, and will not be above $120 per MWh as of the first quarter of 2013.

Energy costs, not blackouts - such as the one which plunged around 10 million Chileans into darkness in September of last year for a few hours - are the main risks in Chile's power sector, del Campo added.

"I totally rule out supply risks in the (northern) SING grid," on which most of the country's massive copper mines depend, he said. "What will likely have an effect in the short-term is that prices in the (south-central) SIC grid aren't falling in the way they are in the north."

State copper producer Codelco's cash costs in the first quarter of the year were $1.30 per pound of copper, rising from 2011's average $1.16 per pound, in large part due to energy prices.
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greg~judy
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by greg~judy » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:18 pm

~DAMN it (or not)...?
now you can't even build a thermal plant w/o some damn problems

Chile’s Supreme Court Grants Injunction Against Endesa Plant Jun 17, 2012
Chile’s Supreme Court granted an injunction filed by fishermen against Empresa Nacional de Electricidad SA’s Bocamina II thermal plant project, the court said, according to the judiciary’s website.
Endesa, as Chile’s largest power generator is known, should carry out an environmental impact study on the possible effects of the project, the court said.
The plant is scheduled to begin operations in the second half of this year.

~
oh, but remember it was supposed to be end 2011...?
so the damn plant is damn near built...?
and NOW they wonder about an environmental impact study...?
DAMN - does chile ever get any weirder...
(damn - now we are starting to sound like p~x...)
~

The Bocamina II thermal plant, owned and operated by Endesa Chile (Santiago de Chile, Chile), will have a capacity of 350 megawatts (MW) and will be fired by bituminous coal. ...Endesa's power generation manager for Chile, the plant will be connected to the Central Interconnected System (SIC) and provide a substantial amount of electricity to the Chilean population. Bocamina II will be equipped with the latest technology and equipment for emissions reduction, including combustion gas desulfurization, filters and low-NOx burners.
Construction of the $560 million power plant began in October 2007, and completion is expected for the end of 2011.


a bit more more on the state of woebegone (thermal) power generation in chile here...
http://www.ordons.com/americas/south-am ... -2014.html
:|
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

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greg~judy
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Re: The Damned Issue - is officially done...

Post by greg~judy » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:05 pm

~
well, it's been 2 damn years since we bumped this...
but it sounds like the damn dam debacle is finally done...
let the environmentalists rejoice...

but what will now be the NEW energy source<s> - sorely needed for the long~thin place...?
maybe incentives and development for reNEWable sources might now take precedence...?
perhaps chile damn well better better get serious about this - asap = pdq...?
:idea:

Chile Rejects $8 Billion Dam Project in Patagonia
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... a-24072855

Chile's government rejected an $8 billion proposal to dam Patagonian rivers to meet the country's growing energy demands, handing a victory to environmentalists who praised Tuesday's ruling as a landmark moment.

A ministerial commission rejected the HidroAysen plan, which would have tamed two of the world's wildest rivers and built more than 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) of power lines to supply energy to central Chile.

After a three-hour meeting, Chile's ministers of agriculture, energy, mining, economy and health voted unanimously to reject the project. The committee "decided to side with complaints presented by the community," Environment Minister Pablo Badenier told reporters. "As of now, the hydroelectric project has been rejected."

The project would have built five dams on the Baker and Pascua rivers in Aysen, a mostly roadless region of southern Patagonia where rainfall is nearly constant and rivers plunge from Andean glaciers to the Pacific Ocean through green valleys and fjords.

Patricio Rodrigo, executive secretary of the Patagonia Defense Council, called the decision "the greatest triumph of the environmental movement in Chile."

It "marks a turning point, where an empowered public demands to be heard and to participate in the decisions that affect their environment and their lives," Rodrigo said.

Chile is strapped for energy, but most Chileans opposed HidroAysen, and protests against it at times turned violent.

"This is truly amazing news," said Margarita Baigorria Cruces, a local resident of Aysen who led a petition campaign against the project for activist group Avaaz.

"We were dreaming and hoping this would happen. We won't be condemned to drink gold: water is our treasure and this historical victory was meant to be sooner or later. The last thing you lose is hope."

HidroAysen executives had promised that the Aysen region would get cheaper energy, jobs, scholarships and millions in infrastructure, including seaports and airports.

But people in the sparsely populated area remained divided. About three dozen families would have been relocated, but the dams would have drowned 14,000 acres (5,700 hectares), required carving clear-cuts through forests, and eliminating whitewater rapids and waterfalls that attract ecotourism. They also could have destroyed habitat for the endangered Southern Huemul deer: Fewer than 1,000 of the diminutive animals, a national symbol, are believed to exist.

With its energy-intensive mining industry demanding more power, experts say Chile must triple its current 18,000-megawatt capacity in just 15 years, despite having no domestic oil or natural gas resources. The dams were planned to generate a total of 2,750 megawatts, almost a third of central Chile's current needs, within 12 years.

Before she was elected last year, President Michelle Bachelet had said the HidroAysen plan was not viable. She announced last month that she instead would tackle Chile's energy crunch by building up alternative energy sources and terminals for liquefied natural gas.

The HidroAysen joint venture is 51 percent owned by European energy generator Endesa and 49 percent owned by the Chilean company Colbun SA. Endesa is a Spanish subsidiary of the Italian energy company Enel SpA.

The company can appeal the decision before an environmental court, and analysts expect a long legal battle. The HidroAysen venture was not immediately available for comment.
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
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“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
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ExpatBob
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by ExpatBob » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:05 pm

We'll just have to go back to burning trees for power. That ought to make them happy.

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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by admin » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:05 pm

yea, little secret. while everyone has been screaming about this particular dam, chile has been building very queitly hundreds of small dams all up and down the mountains. i have stumbled across a dozen just driving around some of the more remote nooks and crannies of the mountains. most are very very well hidden in canneons you cant drive to because of security. i also know a bunch of experts in various fields that have been building them all over the country. you just will never see or hear about them on the news. they learned to keep them low profile.
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by greg~judy » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:23 pm

admin wrote:yea, little secret...
~
well that sounds like a damn conspiracy...

anonymous "experts" building hundreds of small dams <please define "small" in kw's or mw's>...
why the 'low profile' - why are "they" afraid of undue scrutiny~questions...
and who will be the eventual recipients of any power-to-be-generated...

fwiw, a 'small' run-of-the-river set-up requires little infrastructure...
it can supply anything from a single house to a small village...
any 'power lines' would be local~minimal~unobtrusive...

but a "real" damn dam <even a 'small' one> is nothing without a damn transmission line...
if "they" want to sell their kwh's down the road - 'they' need to push them along a wire...
so how will 'they' keep their transmission lines secret...?

it all sounds very interesting admin...
but WTF - why such "secrecy"...
and who are the conspirators...
:|
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

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fraggle092
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:42 pm

Nothing new or unexpected here. Endesa´s share price didn't even budge.
They had already removed HydroAysen from their portfolio of proposed South American Projects in January this year. Colbún stopped power line efforts in 2012.

The government's short-term plan is to increase imports of LNG, but the longer term, much less publicized plan is to build more coal-fired and hydroelectric power plants, probably with a few token "green" projects thrown in.
That is, if they are allowed to implement it, which I seriously doubt.
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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by bert.douglas » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:21 am

Here is a list (probably not complete) of hydropower projects in Chile (among other countries).
http://globalenergyobservatory.org/list ... type=Hydro

There is a 172 megawatt hydropower station in Los Lagos, fed by water from Lago Chapo.
http://globalenergyobservatory.org/geoid/44670
A 6 kilometer tunnel feeds water to the turbines.
The only thing visible in satellite photos is the cleared right-of-way for the power lines.
The water is discharged into Estuario de Reloncavi, below sea level, and is not visible.

I wonder what percentage of the time this plant can operate at capacity. Obviously it is necessary to allow water to flow into Rio Chamiza and all the farms along it. Has there been any complaining about the fluctuation of the water level in Lago Chapo?

I looked up several of the power stations on this list. They either work off an existing lake, or they are "run of river" type plants. You won't find them on google maps unless you know where to look.

Average electricity use per capita in Chile is about 3.3 megawatt hours per year. This is an average continuous load per person of about 400 watts. So this plant can supply power for more than 400,000 people.

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Re: The Damned Issue!

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:00 am

bert.douglas wrote:I wonder what percentage of the time this plant can operate at capacity
Depends what you mean by capacity.
From the same page you quoted, that plant produced 911 GWh during 2009.
That works out at around 104MWh/h
Design Capacity 172 GWe
So Capacity Factor is 60%

Its connected to a grid so the amount of power delivered depends on many external as well as internal factors.
Grid management is complicated, most of the time they get it right, but sometimes they don't....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure
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