The Obama Administration

Anything at all (keep it clean) goes here that does not fit in to any of the other forums.

Moderator: eeuunikkeiexpat

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by frozen-north » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:42 am

JHyre wrote:
First, the corporations didn't put anyone in ovens, and your link, even if believed, fails to address that point.
I posted it in reply to what you posted as a reply to john's comment:
'An apt description for company top executives, rent-seekers and investment bankers.
Yes, they were not the ones doing it, they were just too happy to take the profits, and those executives did not seem bothered by the origin of those profits.

Could corporations continue to exist if governments were eliminated? How would that work?

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by frozen-north » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:49 am

JHyre wrote:
You favor very powerful governments. You do not think they will do evil with that power, or at least do not intend that they do so, and/or think that they can be controlled. But the fact remains, you empower government in spite of the almost universally realized risk that such power will be abused, regardless of supposed "checks" on it.
By the way. I have never said such things, so, please, don't pretend to quote something I never said or wrote.

User avatar
JHyre
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1991
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:08 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by JHyre » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:43 pm

FZ,

Ah. I thought you were responding to me, my bad.
Yes, they were not the ones doing it, they were just too happy to take the profits, and those executives did not seem bothered by the origin of those profits.
I think we agree. Cronies. In this case, cronies of an especially vile sort. But the question remains: Do larger, more powerful governments that absorb a larger percentage of GDP via taxes or outright ownership have more or less to sell to such people? Is there a correlation between the size of a government's coffers and the extent of rent seeking, cronyism and people basically trying to get some of the government's funds diverted to themselves?
JHyre wrote:

You favor very powerful governments. You do not think they will do evil with that power, or at least do not intend that they do so, and/or think that they can be controlled. But the fact remains, you empower government in spite of the almost universally realized risk that such power will be abused, regardless of supposed "checks" on it.


By the way. I have never said such things, so, please, don't pretend to quote something I never said or wrote.
After years of reading your links, it is possible I have misjudged your ideology....but not terribly likely. You will surely correct me if I am mistaken. Are you saying that you are for small government, say pre-1913 US? Or are you some variant of Democrat/Liberal/Social Democrat/Socialist who believes in the power of the State to do good? And that to do good, the State needs, for example, to collect 40%+ of the GDP and use it help those deserving of help? I was very much of the impression that you were somewhere on the D/L/SD/S spectrum. john certainly is and has outright stated that 40% of GDP under government control (roughly where the US is at) is not enough. Am I mistaken in your case?
Could corporations continue to exist if governments were eliminated? How would that work?
No. And that is not what I advocate. To clarify, while I sympathize with much of what most libertarians believe (there are a lot of sub-divisions within that creed), I would not go as far as they do. There is some need for a state. I'd give it a more power than they tend to do (e.g. to conscript, to name one example), but far less power than the US government presently has or than a D/L/SD/S would grant it (they want the US government to have more power than it already has, especially where taxation and regulation are concerned, though often less where national security is concerned).

John Hyre

PS: We'll never agree. But I do think we are being fairly civilized about the disagreement at present. Hope to keep that way, even if the disagreement itself is rather stark.

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1888
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by frozen-north » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:22 pm

JHyre wrote:
We'll never agree. But I do think we are being fairly civilized about the disagreement at present. Hope to keep that way, even if the disagreement itself is rather stark.
Thank you.
Ah. I thought you were responding to me, my bad.
In a way I was. I was trying to point out the fact that corporations are not the ethical entities which some people would like put their trust in, and your comment could have been taken in this light.
Is there a correlation between the size of a government's coffers and the extent of rent seeking, cronyism and people basically trying to get some of the government's funds diverted to themselves?
There could well be a correlation. May be one could consider what percentage of those funds are diverted to private pockets, or if for the benefit of only some particular groups. Would a government with more money divert a larger percentage? Looking at some historical examples,who are the people and social groups that received most of the benefits and had the most influence?
Are you saying that you are for small government, say pre-1913 US?
I don't truly know what it looked like in those days.
Or are you some variant of Democrat/Liberal/Social Democrat/Socialist who believes in the power of the State to do good?
Is anybody who believes that states can do some good some sort of 'communist'? That is what some people seem to believe.
Could corporations continue to exist if governments were eliminated? How would that work?

No. And that is not what I advocate. To clarify, while I sympathize with much of what most libertarians believe (there are a lot of sub-divisions within that creed), I would not go as far as they do. There is some need for a state. I'd give it a more power than they tend to do (e.g. to conscript, to name one example), but far less power than the US government presently has or than a D/L/SD/S would grant it (they want the US government to have more power than it already has, especially where taxation and regulation are concerned, though often less where national security is concerned).
There is some need for a state.
And that is the part which I find interesting. How big? How small? What form should it take? How did we get here? Was it the socialist parties? Corporations? Both? What role did the corporations play in it? Etc.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by john » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:26 pm

JHyre wrote:Top executives never put 6M+ people in ovens. Governments do that, especially the big, powerful ones that you create with the best of intentions and worst of results. Many of those executives sacrifice their marriages & families to make a can of Coke a penny cheaper (or some equivalent achievement). Foolish choice in my view, but I do appreciate the cheap Coke.....at least here in States where things are generally cheaper and we have so many more of those evil corporations.

Rent seekers use the massive government you put in place to get their unearned dollars, think of welfare single moms on steroids. The bigger the government, the greater the opportunities for rent seeking. Which of us creates more rent seeking?

Ditto the investment bankers, they could never do what they do without buying themselves a good set of rules from the politicians & bureaucrats who are so dear to you and the evident solution to every imaginable problem. Too bad the side effects of their "problem solving" are often worse for the patient than the disease.

John Hyre
Perhaps not directly...but major corporations did work closely with the Nazis, and were effectively "aiding and abetting" the Nazis' nefarious deeds. Ref. the following links:

Profits über Alles! American Corporations and Hitler
http://www.globalresearch.ca/profits-be ... and-hitler
10 Global Businesses that Worked With the Nazis
http://www.businesspundit.com/10-global ... -the-nazis
Oliver Stone Says Banksters "Enabled" Hitler and the Nazis -- decided to include a 'conspiracy theory' news source :)
http://www.infowars.com/oliver-stone-sa ... er-and-the nazis/

Rent-seeking activities do not create any value and can impose large costs on an economy. The biggest rent-seekers are Wall Street 'banksters' and corporate lobbyists who are engaged in government lobbying to ensure favourable legislative outcomes on tax, spending and regulatory policies. I concede that corporate lobbying can (and likely does) influence the size of government, particularly in a 'non-representative' government...as has, regrettably, been the case in the US for at least the past 20 years.

Agreed! Wall Street investment bankers are the most egregious of the lobbyists. And, that's why the big banks should be split up to separate their investment bank and broker-dealer operations from their more traditional banking operations (such as savings accounts and home mortgages). Additionally, Congress should re-instate the Glass-Steagall law to mitigate another financial meltdown scenario from occurring.
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

Andres
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 2706
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:09 am
Location: Ex Chile; returned to Oz

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by Andres » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:10 pm

Warning: you might not be able to handle the truth:
http://www.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/ ... yment.aspx
Chile: My expectations are low. Very low.
I accept chaos. I'm not sure whether it accepts me.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by john » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:03 pm

Andres wrote:Warning: you might not be able to handle the truth:
http://www.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/ ... yment.aspx
Finally something we can agree on! :) Of course unemployment is understated...and it always has been. But, I concur with the Gallop article that unemployment is particularly under reported in this current economy...and with no upside relief on the horizon.

Celebrate The Falling Unemployment Rate All You Want, But It Ignores A key Point
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/0 ... 26898.html

And to add to this dire situation is the following opinion piece from Robert Reich...who outlooks even higher unemployment and 'under-employment' in the future.

The Share-the-Scraps Economy
http://www.readersupportednews.org/opin ... ps-economy
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
Sigma62Delta
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 827
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:57 pm
Location: USA-Baltic

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by Sigma62Delta » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:11 am

Wow John that sounds like what you and I talked about over a year go. At least Reich finally caught up with the amateurs..
“It takes advantage of every passing craze and delusion of the mob to dispose of those who oppose it, and it maintains a complex and highly effective machine for launching such crazes and delusions when the supply of them lags. Mencken, Notes on Democracy

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by john » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:50 pm

Sigma62Delta wrote:Wow John that sounds like what you and I talked about over a year go. At least Reich finally caught up with the amateurs..
If you say so! Welcome back to the forum.
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
chuck jeronimo
Rank: Chile Forum Full Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by chuck jeronimo » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:12 pm

Bumper sticker I'd like to see: How Did That Hopey-Changey Thing Work Out For You America?"
"...the artiste formerly known as Chuck J. 3.0..."

seocuenta
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:33 am

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by seocuenta » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:21 pm

aaaaaaand we are done. A bit of change in all of this thing ha, what do you have to say about this? I mean, about Mr Trump

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: The Obama Administration

Post by john » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:07 pm

Alas, Cornel West's assessment is accurate. :cry:

Pity the Sad Legacy of Barak Obama
http://www.readersupportednews.org/opin ... rack-obama
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

Post Reply