The Obama Administration

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JHyre
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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by JHyre » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:56 pm

Ask several members of this website: MB are moderates. No problem, really.

John Hyre

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by admin » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:10 pm

JHyre wrote:Ask several members of this website: MB are moderates. No problem, really.

John Hyre
?

On health care as a right, I find it rather absurd in this century that in the western world we generally find it outrageous that poor people might be denied clean drinking water, shelter, food (all very much for maintaining their health), but receiving even basic medical attention is not considered a right?

Guess when the whole conversation about right to medical care came about in the United States?

About the time that Hospitals quit being none profit organizations and started being corporations. A few of the older members might recall hospitals being run by charities and religious organizations. Not many nuns left in the nursing staff in the United States at major hospitals (well, outside the chapel anyway). At one point it was considered a right of the poor, and an obligation of the rich to support it.
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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by JHyre » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:01 pm

Charles, in re "MB as moderates and your ????": See Oregon Woodsmoke post immediately preceding mine. My response was of course sarcastic and in general agreement with OW. Lots of idealistic types see revolution and simply assume that "Change" will always be better, and they were very rose colored glasses in judging the players, such as MB. We see this again and again: Revolution in Russia 1917, Sandinistas, Iranians and Zimbabwe 1979-ish (bad year), Hamas more recently (Hey, they provide some social services - well, so did Hitler and Bin Laden) etc. Those who have opined that MB is moderate are indulging in wishful thinking and ignoring the weight of the evidence. But it allows them to be "against dictatorship", "for democracy" and gives them time to come up with an explanation when the MB takes power and then acts like all the other muslim fundamentalist groups in that region.....probably America's fault somehow, or better yet, Israel's.

Everyone, as to the recent general theme this chain has taken: This talk of "rights" is nonsense. Truly civilized countries respect freedom to the greatest practical degree, which is defined as my (and your) right to be left alone. That includes, among other things, freedom to enjoy the fruit of my labor without it being forced from me to be given to some other person. What is being promoted here is the "freedom" to not produce what you consume and "freedom" to take whatever one wants through the political process, aka, mob rule. Your "right" to healthcare (and housing, and food, and education,and retirement, etc) simply means taking away my freedom by seizing the labor needed for someone else "rights" from me.

Let's say one of my tenants has four squalling brats, by four different men, before she is 25, "hypothetically". They each have the "right" to healthcare (and housing, and food, and schooling, etc) at my expense. As such, they prosper, and each of them pops out four more brats before age 25, all with a massive array of "rights". In the meantime, I have 2.3 kids, make enough to be comfortable, and then work/earn far less once I'm comfortable, because half (at least) of what I do make is taken from me to provide for others "rights" - why work so hard? Now extrapolate a few generations out - the grasshoppers have outbred the ants, many ants have followed the system's incentives and converted to grasshoppers, or are a lot less ant-like, and the system collapses because there aren't enough productive people to steal from. Oh, wait - we are already there, throughout the "civilized" West. The pain that will arise from bankruptcy of the West can be laid SQUARELY at the feet of those who are always inventing more "rights" with pretty rhetoric and zero substance. Such people have bankrupted the system, not to mention the morality of its people.

That's what happens when you punish productivity by legalized theft and reward the unproductive with lots of "rights". And what many of you call "civilized".

John Hyre

StevenDC
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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by StevenDC » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:19 pm

patagoniax wrote:.
The notion of what is a "basic human right" has of course grown to the level of absurdity. ..
The "grown" issue captures it all for me. Everything in this world runs in cycles, beginnings, growth, aging, destruction, and then back to beginnings. The concept of helping others that are unable to help themselves is an example where in the beginning only those that truly need/deserve the help apply, then others see the "free" aspect and apply, then all apply. The system then breaks down, all lose the benefits, and then we begin again.

Alcoholism is now a Social Security disablement. All you gotta do is show up drunk for the interview. So maybe that program is ready for the destruction part of the cycle.

I still draw a distinction between where self-assumed moral duties to others end and "Human Rights" begin. I see a whole lot of self-destructive practices that end in hardship for some people, yet these practices are voluntarily undertaken.

It seems many of these rights need to be funded by somebody, so shouldn't we be able to draw a line at which each person is required to fund these rights? If there is even one person without food/shelter/medicines and I have those, if this is a human right, then should I be required by law to draw down my level until everyone shares equally? If the answer is not a complete, exact balancing, then that alone makes me question where "human rights" begin and a moral duty to civilation ends.

So, I still don't have an answer. I just see a system in the destruction phase caused by self-satisfaction and greed. This rings of "Tragedy of the Commons"

$0.02
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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by StevenDC » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:28 pm

JHyre wrote:..That's what happens when you punish productivity by legalized theft and reward the unproductive with lots of "rights". And what many of you call "civilized".

John Hyre
John ! Long time no fight ! :D (welcome back, my buckeye friend)
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:32 pm

JHyre wrote:Charles, in re "MB as moderates and your ????": See Oregon Woodsmoke post immediately preceding mine. My response was of course sarcastic. Lots of idealistic types see revolution and simply assume that "Change" will always be better, and they were very rose colored glasses in judging the players, such as MB. We see this again and again: Revolution in Russia 1917, Sandinistas, Iranians and Zimbabwe 1979-ish (bad year), Hamas more recently (Hey, they provide some social services - well, so did Hitler and Bin Laden) etc. Those who have opined that MB is moderate are indulging in wishful thinking and ignoring the weight of the evidence. But it allows them to be "against dictatorship", "for democracy" and gives them time to come up with an explanation when the MB takes power and then acts like all the other muslim fundamentalist groups in that region.....probably America's fault somehow, or better yet, Israel's.

Everyone, as to the recent general theme this chain has taken: This talk of "rights" is nonsense. Truly civilized countries respect freedom to the greatest practical degree, which is defined as my (and your) right to be left alone. That includes, among other things, freedom to enjoy the fruit of my labor without it being forced from me to be given to some other person. What is being promoted here is the "freedom" to not produce what you consume and "freedom" to take whatever one wants through the political process, aka, mob rule. Your "right" to healthcare (and housing, and food, and education,and retirement, etc) simply means taking away my freedom by seizing the labor needed for someone else "rights" from me.

Let's say one of my tenants has four squalling brats, by four different men, before she is 25, "hypothetically". They each have the "right" to healthcare (and housing, and food, and schooling, etc) at my expense. As such, they prosper, and each of them pops out four more brats before age 25, all with a massive array of "rights". In the meantime, I have 2.3 kids, make enough to be comfortable, and then work/earn far less once I'm comfortable, because half (at least) of what I do make is taken from me to provide for others "rights" - why work so hard? Now extrapolate a few generations out - the grasshoppers have outbred the ants, many ants have followed the system's incentives and converted to grasshoppers, or are a lot less ant-like, and the system collapses because there aren't enough productive people to steal from. Oh, wait - we are already there, throughout the "civilized" West. The pain that will arise from bankruptcy of the West can be laid SQUARELY at the feet of those who are always inventing more "rights" with pretty rhetoric and zero substance. Such people have bankrupted the system, not to mention the morality of its people.

That's what happens when you punish productivity by legalized theft and reward the unproductive with lots of "rights". And what many of you call "civilized".

John Hyre
I think that you need to thank the good lord above every day that the USA has the social programs/welfare system that it has. For you see it is capitalism's greatest invention. It has prevented revolution in a country that had all the prerequisites for it at one point.

I sure like how you think in terms of who you subsidize, whose way you pay for. How's about we talk about the successive governments in the US that allow the rich to exploit the poor and subsidize you food? Would you like to talk about tomato pickers in Florida who work 12 hour days for 50 dollars a day under slave labour conditions.

Or would you prefer to talk about the corporate 'farmers' in the hog and corn industries that receive massive subsidies? Or maybe the oil industry subsidies?

Just how long do you think that the USA would last if you had no welfare and 20 percent of your population with no income.

I find your viewpoint selfish in many respects. Many people in the US became unemployed during this last downturn through no fault of their own. People who had worked all their lives. Maybe we need to blame the system that allows (or better yet gives tax breaks) to corporations that outsource American jobs to India. God knows I can't call tech support anymore without getting routed to India.

Many people who still have a job live in their cars.

A more equitable society is a more prosperous society. Hell even Henry Ford realized that he could make a lot more money if the workers in his factories could afford the product that they were building.

Frankly I cannot imagine how the hell you all managed to keep black people from opening a can of whoopass on you all all these years.

If you received a public elementary education at some point in your life thank someone that not everybody thought like you cause public education is paid for by all. Including those like me who have no children. If you went to a state college you were once again heavily subsuidized...

All I know is that there are not nearly enough hedge fund managers and bankers in jail in the US right now cause Madoff was the tip of the iceberg.

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:34 pm

oh yeah..... one more thing JH...
:) Hope you are doing well.

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by JHyre » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:34 pm

Hello Steven. Had a bit of time to post and be obnoxious in general. We'll have to find something to disagree on, looks like in this chain of posts we are more in accord. I recollect that you also have some Buckeye roots? :alien:

PdC,

Will reply later, taking the kids to boxing class. If you are not teaching the little ones the ways of close-quarters mayhem, you are a lousy parent. 8)

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by Spang » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:43 pm

Far as I can tell Jhyre is pining for a return to feudalism. No one but the King took you're money back then but it was always for a worthy cause like a war or a new palace etc. Back then people had proper work ethics non of this I'll let someone else pay for me nonsense.

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:57 pm

Led by Newt Gingrich, conservatives are floating the notion that states should be allowed to declare bankruptcy to escape their pension obligations to firefighters, cops, teachers and, yes, sanitation workers. Gingrich called on House Republicans “to move a bill in the first month or so of their tenure to create a venue for state bankruptcy.” This was followed by a plea in The Weekly Standard by University of Pennsylvania law professor David Skeel titled “Give States a Way to Go Bankrupt.” Skeel later told a reporter that he had “never had anything I’ve written get as much attention as that piece.” He said he had been contacted by lawmakers from all over.

That is from a current article. Now I ask you John, does that sound like fair ball to you? Would you like to work all your life and have a state declare bankruptcy on paper and do away with your retirement funds? Sounds a lot like what regulators allowed many companies to do during the meltdown. That is how Republicans think. Now I do not know if you vote Republican but I can assume that you do not vote Democrat.

SO it is kind of odd how certain people on the right want their cake and want to eat it too. Welfare BAD. Corporate welfare GOOD.

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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by StevenDC » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:14 pm

PenquistaDeCorazon wrote:. It has prevented revolution in a country that had all the prerequisites for it at one point.

. How's about we talk about the successive governments in the US that allow the rich to exploit the poor and subsidize you food? Would you like to talk about tomato pickers in Florida who work 12 hour days for 50 dollars a day under slave labour conditions.

Or would you prefer to talk about the corporate 'farmers' in the hog and corn industries that receive massive subsidies? Or maybe the oil industry subsidies?

..All I know is that there are not nearly enough hedge fund managers and bankers in jail in the US right now cause Madoff was the tip of the iceberg.
The bankers won't go to jail so long as they run the country. The corporations won't lose the massive subsidies so long as they are in bed with the bankers. If these are all indications that the system is weighted to the rich against the poor, then perhaps the prerequisites for revolution are not a bad thing? Keeping in mind of course that the US is the product of a revolution. Which Framer was it stated that they gave us a democracy, it was our job to keep it?

And how many have warned us against a central bank? I admire those around the world with the courage to rebel against tyranny.

JH, yep, U of Cincy undergrad, U of Akron law, stationed Wright Pat. Hey, didn't I see you in Yellow Springs? :chinese:
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Re: The Obama Administration

Post by admin » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:21 pm

I will cede the point to our other members. It should be fully your right to not pay for my health care or anyone else's health care if you so choose. Thus, it would also have to be fully within our Darwinian / Adam smith rights to pass on highly communicable untreated diseases to you. You have no right to intervene in an attempt to treat, control, or otherwise interfere with my right to die a horrible miserable death.

Come on? We are all adults here.

The strength of herd in the wild is not measured by its strongest members (contrary to those that fail to grasp Darwin because they never got past the intro page), but by the well being of its weakest members. Thus why the simplest life forms tend to group together for mutual benefit and advantage.

There are certain things that belong to all humanity. I count basic modern medical care as one of them. I don't think caligen injections count, but access to such things as antibiotics, emergency surgery, and so on. Anything else really is blaming the victim (no one wants to get sick). That 90% of the World's population still lives in the medical dark ages, is a little embarrassing to us as humans, as a species, don't you think in the year 2011 (hell, where is my frigen space ship)?

It is not about human "Rights" with a big "R", it is about doing things right.
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