America on Fire

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Jamers41
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Re: America on Fire

Post by Jamers41 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:50 pm

nikotromus wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:30 am
No doubt. One day the hoards of protesters in Chile will lose their fear of cooties and get back to the streets. Only this time they'll be a little poorer, a little hungrier and for a lot of them they'll have a lot more time on their hands. Maybe all the protests in Murica will serve as a catalyst.
Yeah but soon enough they won't have the phantom of Piñera to use as their rallying cry. Soon it will be October, when we will (supposedly) have a referendum on the constitution, then early next year we will have more elections (municipal ones), and late 2021 is the next presidential election.......so there will be a series of things and people to vote on rather soon. Piñera will soon be a lame duck (in the traditional sense, some say he has been already).

It's hard to justify massive protests when they are giving you the opportunity to change things (at least in theory) by voting. I saw a poll in April where for the first time since October a majority said it was not the time to be protesting on the streets......there can be chaos and shady activity going on in particular hot spots but I would be surprised to see 1 million+ people in plaza italia (plus more outside of Santiago) again like we had on October 25th. Additionally, it the new reelection limit law is implemented as I understand, there will be numerous parliamentarians retiring, and fresh blood in the Chilean Congress. I know there are always those who say voting is a useless exercise, and I get that, but for the purposes of how to justify street protests, the counterargument is that, for this particular instance in 2020 and especially 2021, there will be a real chance to usher in lots of new political faces, instead of just going outside and causing mayhem on large urban avenues.

Jamers41
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Re: America on Fire

Post by Jamers41 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:53 pm

Yeah but soon enough they won't have the phantom of Piñera to use as their rallying cry. Soon it will be October, when we will (supposedly) have a referendum on the constitution, then early next year we will have more elections (municipal ones), and late 2021 is the next presidential election.......so there will be a series of things and people to vote on rather soon. Piñera will soon be a lame duck (in the traditional sense, some say he has been already).

It's hard to justify massive protests when they are giving you the opportunity to change things (at least in theory) by voting. I saw a poll in April where for the first time since October a majority said it was not the time to be protesting on the streets......there can be chaos and shady activity going on in particular hot spots but I would be surprised to see 1 million+ people in plaza italia (plus more outside of Santiago) again like we had on October 25th. Additionally, it the new reelection limit law is implemented as I understand, there will be numerous parliamentarians retiring, and fresh blood in the Chilean Congress. I know there are always those who say voting is a useless exercise, and I get that, but for the purposes of how to justify street protests, the counterargument is that, for this particular instance in 2020 and especially 2021, there will be a real chance to usher in lots of new political faces, instead of just going outside and causing mayhem on large urban avenues.

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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:46 pm

I am also waiting to see in the next few weeks, if a massive spike in u.s. cases related to the protests comes to pass, and how chileans react to that. They might loose their interests in protesting altogether.
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Re: America on Fire

Post by nikotromus » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:38 pm

admin wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:46 pm
I am also waiting to see in the next few weeks, if a massive spike in u.s. cases related to the protests comes to pass, and how chileans react to that. They might loose their interests on protesting altogether.
What about a massive spike in Canadian cases? We're still in the middle of the worst pandemic of the last century right? What is the Prime Minister of Canada doing at this protest? He's breaking social distancing rules, congregating in large groups and a member of his entourage walks with him unmasked. Trudeau is directly putting his own population at a health risk with this presence, and indirectly putting them at risk by encouraging bad behavior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVSjY_bGJy0

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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:28 pm

and a disproportionate large numbers of the covid victims will be black.

If black lives matter, then stop killing black people!!!
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fraggle092
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Re: America on Fire

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:17 pm

People these days feel that they have acquired Rights and Freedoms to challenge authority in ways that range from peaceful protest up to violence and destruction. In the US, official reactions have always been heavy-handed; it jails more citizens than any other western country, and police violence has always been the norm.

Unfortunately for democracy, no country can successfully govern faced with a multitude of social demands that change from day to day at the whim of the masses, nor tolerate the sense of impunity that mass protest engenders. Demands are often manipulated with ulterior motives, as has been the case here in Chile. And the ensuing disorder provides a useful cover for criminal actions. Solutions to perceived injustices are often sought through change and legislation and sometimes this works. But for every issue that is resolved, another one pops up; there seems to be no "happy ending" .
The influence of NGOs with a vested interest in fomenting discontent, and actively promote it to further their own murky agendas is another modern phenomenon; Amnesty International's role in last October's riots is one local example.

But the Chinese government is taking a sinister step in the other direction. Rather than trying to respond to societal demands, legitimate or otherwise, they are starting to use a much scarier system, Social Credit, based on Facial Recognition technology to penalize what the authorities regard as unsocial/antisocial behaviour. Like the TAG cameras here, infractions are automatically added with little chance of appeal. But Social Credit has a much broader, more imaginative range of punishments that have a wide-ranging effect on people's lives.

In China people have modified their behaviour in response to the omnipresent vigilance, fear of reprisals that target them individually have led to a self-policing mentality that makes them behave "better". As a means of social control it seems to be working, and of course they have strong police forces to back it up if all else fails.

I am sure that other counties are already testing the technology. If successful it will be implemented. Most complaints about Internet privacy just now are motivated by the intrusive nature of commercial interests. Just imagine what it will be like when states actively start acquiring data on every citizen's behaviour, and openly use the information for controlling them. And quis custodiet ipsos? The "cure" may be worse than the disease.

Think it'll never happen? People in the "Land of the Free"already brag about their financial Credit Ratings. Commerce is already using this system.

A video from the Economist.
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Re: America on Fire

Post by gregf » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:34 pm

So police may act with impunity but not the common citizen. Got it. I also love how these peaceful protests are judged by very few violent acts (mostly against property) yet the police force is “just a few bad apples” we shouldnt judge the police state by. At least in USA there is t A constantly shifting set of demands. The BLM movement has all of fact and moral right on its side. The police are the violent actors in these protests. Imagine if they faced the real violence some of the chile protests brought with ball bearing sling shots and molotov cocktails, etc. a water bottle hits the ground in front of a riot armored cop so they beat the shit out of unarmed nonthreatening protestors. In Chile I had more the impression of political/bad actors/etc holding some truth. Not at all in USA.

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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:11 pm

gregf wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:34 pm
So police may act with impunity but not the common citizen. Got it. I also love how these peaceful protests are judged by very few violent acts (mostly against property) yet the police force is “just a few bad apples” we shouldnt judge the police state by. At least in USA there is t A constantly shifting set of demands. The BLM movement has all of fact and moral right on its side. The police are the violent actors in these protests. Imagine if they faced the real violence some of the chile protests brought with ball bearing sling shots and molotov cocktails, etc. a water bottle hits the ground in front of a riot armored cop so they beat the shit out of unarmed nonthreatening protestors. In Chile I had more the impression of political/bad actors/etc holding some truth. Not at all in USA.
The 'few bad apples' argument definitely does not apply to the Minneapolis police department. More like rotten to the core.

So, quick story; and I got a few more about that police department.

My father was a prosecutor in the 1970's in Minneapolis. In fact, at that time he was head of the criminal division at the city attorney's office. He was trying a particularly high-profile case.

One day, he gets on the elevator going to his office. The chief of police gets on the elevator with him, and they are alone. The Chief of police strikes up a conversation with him, and at some point brings up the case and says, "I hear you have a 12 foot sail boat out at the lake calhoun. How would you like a 40 footer"?

Chief of police goes on, and says, "I hear you have four kids that are about to head off to the University, might be able to help you out with that".

So my father tells him he would give it some thought. He then goes to the FBI. They wire him up to try and get him on tape. My father tried for several weeks, but could never get him to repeat the offer.

That is shocking in itself. The more shocking is how I learned about that story.

Years later, after my father quit, and went in to private practice there was a point at which the practice was not doing very well and our family finances were in trouble. My mother and father were having a typical married couple argument about money, my mother ran out of things to verbally throw at my father when she said, "You ethical SOB, we could be living in a mansion in the Caribbean".

Which promoted me to ask my father what she was talking about, and he told me the story.

All that, and guess who had to defend the police when the city got sued for police misconduct?

I am actually surprised no one has applied the RICO organized crime laws to the law suits against the Minneapolis PD the way they did against he LA PD. Perhaps they have and I just have not seen it.

I seen a stat go by the other day, that New York city alone is spends over 200 million dollars a year settling police misconduct cases.
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Re: America on Fire

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:17 pm

I don't know if the last post by gregf is a response to mine, if so it misses most points and more or less reinforces my view that emotional responses are unhelpful.

Here's the real problem with the US, one that is hardly mentioned: I know these people, having worked with repugnant specimens just like this both in the US and abroad, (Another reason I left the US) and there's an awful lot of them. What to do about them? They have their own peculiar views, and they will never change. And the internet "empowers" them, too.
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frozen-north
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Re: America on Fire

Post by frozen-north » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:53 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
People these days feel that they have acquired Rights and Freedoms to challenge authority ... In the US, official reactions have always been heavy-handed ...and police violence has always been the norm.
*They* think they have rights? They might also believe that they do not live under a self-appointed aristocracy.

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Re: America on Fire

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:15 pm

frozen-north wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:53 pm
.. They might also believe that they do not live under a self-appointed aristocracy.
If, by that slightly opaque remark, you mean that they believe they are living in a free society, yes they might do.

More fools them, especially with Donald and his cronies running the show. Kleptocracy rather than aristocracy.
After the current kerfuffle dies down, changes will be made and some heads will roll, but everything will basically remain the same, at least that's mho.
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Zenth
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Re: America on Fire

Post by Zenth » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:57 pm

Admins fathers story is the way smart people bribe and are bribed. The offer is made at the first meeting when the person is not ready to record the bribe attempt. Any future attempts to get the person to offer it again must be done carefully. The person offering the bribe may be recording the conversation and it at that point it may look like the bribe was solicited.
Your dad was smart to go to the FBI and to be careful.

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