Any push back?

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nikotromus
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Re: Any push back?

Post by nikotromus » Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm

Are we reading the same thing on the CDC's website about how to diagnose a CV death? This looks standard to you? Wow - ok.

cv.png

What about this explanation of how to diagnose a CV death from the Michigan's director of public health? How do you explain this away? Is this really just a one off for the fraud we're being presented with? This is only 1 minute long if you're curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9XZJAfbSn8

If this disease is so bad, then why all the fuzzy numbers?

It is an upper respiratory disease, and from everything I know about this disease, the symptoms are very close to that of the seasonal flu. If what they say is correct and it's in a worse family of upper respiratory diseases, ok. The question still remains. Even if this thing is just as bad as they say it is (which I doubt), is it worth flushing society down the drain? 1.5 million people died of tuberculosis in 2018 and we didn't put healthy people under house arrest for months. Life went on. This event even with the enormous fraud hoisted upon it is still nowhere close to those numbers. It hasn't even surpassed the seasonal flu yet worldwide. I don't believe it is an outrage to debate whether the cure is worse than the disease. There are many people who absolutely believe that, but not nearly enough.

You say this has inconvenienced you, but has it really hit you hard yet? I think this is a big reason why many people aren't worked up over what's happening yet. Maybe only 20% of livelihoods have been ruined. When that number starts to climb, I think people will start to ask more questions. If you had a hard time paying rent and putting food on the table for your kids, you might be looking at this through a different lens right now.

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RuneTheChookcha
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Re: Any push back?

Post by RuneTheChookcha » Wed May 20, 2020 8:55 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:44 pm
the smartest option is to follow the science
Should one follow "the science" in general, or one must accept an opinion of a specific scientist (or a group of scientists) as absolute truth?

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RuneTheChookcha
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Re: Any push back?

Post by RuneTheChookcha » Wed May 20, 2020 8:56 pm

{
sorry for a bit of trolling;
but this is a lobby
}

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tiagoabner
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Re: Any push back?

Post by tiagoabner » Wed May 20, 2020 9:05 pm

RuneTheChookcha wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:55 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:44 pm
the smartest option is to follow the science
Should one follow "the science" in general, or one must accept an opinion of a specific scientist (or a group of scientists) as absolute truth?
That question is really relevant in cases where there isn't a consensus, but that's not the case with this epidemic. Science isn't a matter of opinion: it's a matter of what you can prove. Given that the vast majority of scientists agree on the source of this virus and on the best measures to take about it (like here), there really much of a "which science" question in this case.
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Re: Any push back?

Post by nikotromus » Wed May 20, 2020 9:35 pm

@tiagobner - This is likely way too long for you to sit through, but I'd love to hear what you think about it if you do. This guy 100% believes this disease is real. He does however make the case that the way it has been handled is incorrect and refutes the boogeyman death predictions, which obviously have not happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYHMBFz_PqI

As an observer of reality, there are things I see that just don't make sense about this aside from the diagnosis and death fraud I just posted. I'd love to hear your take on them:
  • If this disease is as contagious as they say it is, then how is it that Hong Kong, the most crowded city on the planet has only 4 CV deaths? People are practically climbing on top of one another. Just look at images of their subway system. It make rush out on the Santiago metro look calm. They've had business men flying in and out of their country by the thousands from Wuhan like other countries. It makes no sense.
  • How is it that India, a country of 1.6 billion people only have a little over 3,000 deaths? As a software engineer, I am very familiar with the country. Half of the country lives in very crowded conditions with horrible sanitation. That half of the country struggles to afford running water let alone hand sanitizer. With the population density and lack of good hygene (people literally pooping in the streets), it should have been a breeding ground for CV. If CV is as bad as they say it is, there should be millions dead there.
  • As horrible as they've told us this thing is, they still never shut down places like Wal-Mart, Lider and Home Depot. If you ask me, these people are on the front lines. They definitely interact with way more people than a hospital does. If this is as bad as they say it is, massive waves of stores should have closed long ago because nobody is left alive or healthy to man the cash registers. I don't know how this is explained away.
  • If this disease is as bad as they say it is, then why are hospitals in Murica (the hardest hit country on the planet) furloughing nurses and doctors?With so many dying patients, why aren't they pulling off 80 hour shifts? If they are in an area of the country where the infection rates are low, why aren't they being shipped off to areas of the country where the infection rates are high so they can relieve nurses who have been working around the clock keeping CV patients alive? I would think that in the middle of the worse pandemic the country has seen in 100 years, nurses would be the last occupation to be laid off.

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Re: Any push back?

Post by tiagoabner » Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm

nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
Are we reading the same thing on the CDC's website about how to diagnose a CV death? This looks standard to you? Wow - ok.
Yes, I agree with that decision. Given that flu has been mostly inexistent in most of the western world this year (as social distancing and isolation curbs it to a high degree), it seems reasonable to classify the deaths as "probable" COVID deaths. I mean, the flu kills 0.1% of the cases, while COVID kills 1-15% of those infected (depending on multiple risk factors). If a person dies during a COVID pandemic, what is more likely: that the death was caused by the less lethal disease or by the more lethal disease? That guideline also instructs that testing should be used whenever it's possible, this is an option in case the patient dies before they can be tested.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
What about this explanation of how to diagnose a CV death from the Michigan's director of public health? How do you explain this away? Is this really just a one off for the fraud we're being presented with? This is only 1 minute long if you're curious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9XZJAfbSn8
That sounds sketchy, but I would like to see her interview in full in order to see if it wasn't taken out of context. I may do that tonight, given that it's over an hour long.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
If this disease is so bad, then why all the fuzzy numbers?
Each country has a different testing methodology, as well as different criteria on which deaths count as COVID 19 deaths. In fact, in the USA, each state is responsible for its own counting methodology.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
Is it worth flushing society down the drain?
The thing that you may not have grasped here is that not isolating will be worse than isolating. Deaths have a cost. Take a look at this explanation. Yes, it is not an intuitive concept, but lives need to have a cost. If lives were to have infinite value, it wouldn't be possible to make risk assessments and to determine government policies. So there must be a cost associated with a life. Thus, it is possible to make very good estimates on how much not isolating would cost.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
1.5 million people died of tuberculosis in 2018 and we didn't put healthy people under house arrest for months. Life went on. This event even with the enormous fraud hoisted upon it is still nowhere close to those numbers.
That number is correct, there were 1.5 million tuberculosis deaths worldwide in 2018. However, over 87% of them were in poor, highly populated areas. There were 9025 cases of Tuberculosis in the USA in 2018, and there were roughly 500 deaths. Tuberculosis is a disease that is much more prevalent in poorer countries, which may be devastated by COVID-19. We may not be seeing it yet because the poorer African countries don't even have the resources to test. Doctors and gravediggers are overwhelmed in Nigeria already, and that's one of the richest African countries.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
It hasn't even surpassed the seasonal flu yet worldwide.
I couldn't find a reliable worldwide number for flu deaths for 2019, so I'm going by American numbers here. German, Spanish, and UK numbers would give the same results, so I'm happy to rerun them if you need me to.

The common flu kills about 35,000 to 60,000 Americans each year. Meanwhile, COVID-19 has killed over 94,000 people in the USA as of May 2020. It's safe to assume that we're going to be over 200,000 dead in the USA alone before this is over, and that's accounting for reporting errors.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
I don't believe it is an outrage to debate whether the cure is worse than the disease. There are many people who absolutely believe that, but not nearly enough.
I'm never against debate, as I wouldn't be posting here otherwise. But I'm always in favor of using reliable sources and peer-reviewed, scientific principles when deciding on healthcare policies.
nikotromus wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:52 pm
You say this has inconvenienced you but has it really hit you hard yet? I think this is a big reason why many people aren't worked up over what's happening yet. Maybe only 20% of livelihoods have been ruined. When that number starts to climb, I think people will start to ask more questions. If you had a hard time paying rent and putting food on the table for your kids, you might be looking at this through a different lens right now.
I'm not sure if I've been clear enough. The isolation, travel restriction and social distancing guidelines have been inconvenient for me, but I'm not in financial distress. And I'm going to guess that most forumites aren't either. I mean, the widely accepted annual cost to move to chile with a family is about USD $50,000 per year, which is roughly 5 Chilean minimum wages per month, so I'm always working on the assumption that most non-retired forumites are on the "ABC" financial tier on the Chilean economic scale.

I also agree with you that it would've been much harder to see things as they are if I was in financial distress. Heck, I was through some rough times throughout my life, and those were certainly the times when seeing things through was the hardest. But I'm not in distress, so I can empathize with them, but I'm not in their place right now.

Saving lives versus saving the economy is a false choice.
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RuneTheChookcha
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Re: Any push back?

Post by RuneTheChookcha » Wed May 20, 2020 9:51 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:44 pm
... once the population has been vaccinated ...
I spent quite a bit of time recently on some studies and university textbooks on the subject of microbiology of cell in general, to better understand what are some of the modern vaccine developers are about to do.

Thus, the Moderna's mRNA-1273 uses the technology that employs "Prefusion Coronavirus Spike Protein" engineering, next the corresponding mRNA engineering, that will be further used for delivery to our cells (via blood), so that our body cells start generate ("engineer") this artificially formulated protein.

So we have some artificially formulated substance, delivered to the cell in an unnatural way (directly into the bloodstream). While food (our natural way of delivery) always passes through the digestive system only, in a specific order. Our bloodstream is naturally protected from any direct contact with foreign substance.

Do you think this is a good idea?

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Re: Any push back?

Post by tiagoabner » Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 pm

RuneTheChookcha wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:51 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:44 pm
... once the population has been vaccinated ...
I spent quite a bit of time recently on some studies and university textbooks on the subject of microbiology of cell in general, to better understand what are some of the modern vaccine developers are about to do.

Thus, the Moderna's mRNA-1273 uses the technology that employs "Prefusion Coronavirus Spike Protein" engineering, next the corresponding mRNA engineering, that will be further used for delivery to our cells (via blood), so that our body cells start generate ("engineer") this artificially formulated protein.

So we have some artificially formulated substance, delivered to the cell in an unnatural way (directly into the bloodstream). While food (our natural way of delivery) always passes through the digestive system only, in a specific order. Our bloodstream is naturally protected from any direct contact with foreign substance.

Do you think this is a good idea?
That is a bit beyond my field of expertise, but I'll certainly read more before following up. I'll post again tomorrow, I have a 1-hour interview to watch right now. :-)
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Re: Any push back?

Post by RuneTheChookcha » Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:05 pm
Given that the vast majority of scientists agree
There will always be a "vast majority of scientists", IMO, who will agree on anything that has to be "truth" at this time. All others will be "spreading misinformation".

Having said that, I will do my best not to participate in this sort of "information" / "misinformation" battle online. It cannot be won.

But a controversial topic like this can be sometimes mildly entertaining.

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tiagoabner
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Re: Any push back?

Post by tiagoabner » Wed May 20, 2020 10:18 pm

RuneTheChookcha wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:05 pm
Given that the vast majority of scientists agree
There will always be a "vast majority of scientists", IMO, who will agree on anything that has to be "truth" at this time. All others will be "spreading misinformation".

Having said that, I will do my best not to participate in this sort of "information" / "misinformation" battle online. It cannot be won.

But a controversial topic like this can be sometimes mildly entertaining.
I see the angle that you're coming from and I don't disagree with it in general. But given that this is a healthcare crisis, I would go with the most commonly accepted scientific point of view, if it was my decision to make.
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nikotromus
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Re: Any push back?

Post by nikotromus » Wed May 20, 2020 10:29 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
Yes, I agree with that decision. Given that flu has been mostly inexistent in most of the western world this year (as social distancing and isolation curbs it to a high degree), it seems reasonable to classify the deaths as "probable" COVID deaths.
Are you serious? Flu deaths are non-existent this year? That sounds absolutely incredible. Where are your sources for this one? Has there been a year in the last 100 where flu deaths were mostly non-existent? Holy cow - if this is true, it takes my suspicion meter from orange to red.
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
Each country has a different testing methodology, as well as different criteria on which deaths count as COVID 19 deaths. In fact, in the USA, each state is responsible for its own counting methodology.
I just hope that other countries are reporting on facts, and not supposition like in los Estados Unidos.
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
The thing that you may not have grasped here is that not isolating will be worse than isolating. Deaths have a cost. Take a look at this explanation. Yes, it is not an intuitive concept, but lives need to have a cost. If lives were to have infinite value, it wouldn't be possible to make risk assessments and to determine government policies. So there must be a cost associated with a life. Thus, it is possible to make very good estimates on how much not isolating would cost.
That is the entire world shut down argument right there. On the flip side of this argument, there will be a cost in lives for this shutdown. Suicide, mal-nutrition, disease via a lower immune system due to the stress and fear that people have been put under.
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
That number is correct, there were 1.5 million tuberculosis deaths worldwide in 2018. However, over 87% of them were in poor, highly populated areas. There were 9025 cases of Tuberculosis in the USA in 2018, and there were roughly 500 deaths. Tuberculosis is a disease that is much more prevalent in poorer countries, which may be devastated by COVID-19. We may not be seeing it yet because the poorer African countries don't even have the resources to test. Doctors and gravediggers are overwhelmed in Nigeria already, and that's one of the richest African countries.
Ya know - it would have been really interesting if they had tested this worldwide experiment in a poor, tuberculosis ridden country first before attempting this worldwide. Damn - it sounds racist as hell that "they" - this worldwide system did nothing to help those countries who lost a million plus. Juxtapose that to what is happening today. If it is what they say it is, "they" shut the whole world down to protect the privileged, but pissed all over the poor and dark skinned.
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
I couldn't find a reliable worldwide number for flu deaths for 2019, so I'm going by American numbers here. German, Spanish, and UK numbers would give the same results, so I'm happy to rerun them if you need me to.
I don't know how reliable this, just like like anything on the internet, but it reports: "Seasonal flu kills 291,000 to 646,000 people worldwide each year, according to a new estimate that's higher than the previous one of 250,000 to 500,000 deaths a year." Compare that to CV, which is currently at 325k.

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main ... key=208914
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:47 pm
The common flu kills about 35,000 to 60,000 Americans each year. Meanwhile, COVID-19 has killed over 94,000 people in the USA as of May 2020. It's safe to assume that we're going to be over 200,000 dead in the USA alone before this is over, and that's accounting for reporting errors.
Again I've got to point to the ridiculously fishy death guidelines for CV in los Estados Unidos along with the cash incentives to make it happen. This along with the revelation you just reported (if I didn't misinterpret you) that there are apparently mostly non-existent flu deaths this year makes me question what I am being told even more critically.

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Re: Any push back?

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Thu May 21, 2020 1:40 am

RuneTheChookcha wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:05 pm
Given that the vast majority of scientists agree
There will always be a "vast majority of scientists", IMO, who will agree on anything that has to be "truth" at this time. All others will be "spreading misinformation".

Having said that, I will do my best not to participate in this sort of "information" / "misinformation" battle online. It cannot be won.

But a controversial topic like this can be sometimes mildly entertaining.
Sit back and enjoy the show dude. There will be more black swans that will expose all sooner than we think with possibly surprising results.
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

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