Venezuela crisis

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by admin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:11 pm

So this is fun. The left telling the other part of the left, you look like a bunch of frigen morons by not denouncing Maduro as a dictator and undermining the credibility of the left with the Chilean public.

https://www.latercera.com/politica/noti ... et/554049/

Basically goes back to my "animal farm" inspired criticism of them from the start: All dictators are equal, just some dictators are more equal than others.

I mean, set aside the ideological b.s. attached to it, does that sound like a good way to inspire your voters? Does that sell them on whatever political b.s. you are shoveling to get elected, when you are in fact doing something else?

They have run around for 30+ years screaming about how they are fighting the "the dictator", "the dictator", "the dictator", to the point most of the left have become one trick ponies and really have no other line to work with. Now, they are faced with denouncing a dictator, but a socialist dictator, and their true colors come out.

It was all a red herring to get people that would vote against a dictator, but not for socialist, to vote for them.

In fact, I would suspect that 80% of the left voting base over the last 30 years, never voted for socialist style government; they were voting against the dictatorship and politicians on the right that supported them. That showed up in a big, big way in the last election.

Would they have supported Pinochet, had he called himself slapped a "socialist" brand label on his lapel?

Because that is exactly the political corner the left have backed themselves in to.
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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by AnciaVagar » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:36 pm

admin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:11 pm
...
They have run around for 30+ years screaming about how they are fighting the "the dictator", "the dictator", "the dictator", to the point most of the left have become one trick ponies and really have no other line to work with. Now, they are faced with denouncing a dictator, but a socialist dictator, and their true colors come out.
...
In fact, I would suspect that 80% of the left voting base over the last 30 years, never voted for socialist style government;...
I doubt any Venezolano will ever vote against the public policies of socialism, but the opposition's problem runs a little deeper. Philosophically, they have all always been substantially aligned with Chavismo/Marxismo, they only disagree with the results of that philosophy. (Of course, some only want their turn at the public theft -- a related tangent.) Now it's a marketing problem: differentiation.

[BTW, Hitler solved the same problem by promoting the right/left false dichotomy: national socialism vs. international socialism.]

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by Space Cat » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:47 pm

It has been going for a while, FA was almost splitting in two in 2018 because their extreme-left factions didn't want to go against Maduro. They are so deep into the internal competition of "who's the most righteous leftist" that they can't even understand that their average voter doesn't care.

One can dream that their stay in this echo chamber can give rise to some solid centrist politicians like Partido Radical from the 20th century.

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by AnciaVagar » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:52 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:47 pm
It has been going for a while, FA was almost splitting in two in 2018 because their extreme-left factions didn't want to go against Maduro. They are so deep into the internal competition of "who's the most righteous leftist" that they can't even understand that their average voter doesn't care.

One can dream that their stay in this echo chamber can give rise to some solid centrist politicians like Partido Radical from the 20th century.
Personalities, not public policy, in play.

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by admin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:24 pm

yea, you can package up "socialism" and brand it in all sorts of different ways. Both political left and right, do it through-out history, in their own way, for their own ends. Of course, in Latin America, when pressed they like to point to northern European type socialism as their goal or objective; but, in latin america it has one conclusion: corruption. Always has been. Always will be.

Northern Europe does not really have "socialism" in the sense that the little commies on the streets of Chile like to make it out to be. Like it was some sort of alternative sexual Fetish. What they want is some magical Marxism, that makes them all rich, gives them a new iphone, new car, etc; yet, they never have to work again. I am not even sure what sort of fantasy land they live in. I have never interrogated one, without their own Philosophical understanding of "socialism" sort of imploding on them on them in about 1-5 mins; basically, bringing the conversation to an abrupt end. hard to have a proper argument, when the other side is not even sure what their position is all about.

What northern Europe has is a high rate of spending on social programs, paid for by very very rich capitalist societies. How did they get that rich? They spent a whole lot of time and money on development.

Socialism, as an ideology, is an interesting political animal. The left politicians depends on it for their bread and butter, just as much as the right politicians depend on it for their bread and butter. What would the right wingers rail against and get their bases all fired up over without it? So, the right has got an "investment" in "socialism", just as big as the left. It is all just about which direction the government money flows.

But, government spending money on it's people, is not the same as socialism.

I have always kept in my mind what a Dutch guy once said to me. Ironically, he was the administrator of the American Cemetery in the Netherlands, where my uncle that was killed in WWII was buried (just over the boarder in Germany, in the last days of the war).

Somehow, we got to talking about politics. He said something nice and simple, "what is the point of government, if it does not do anything for the people"?

All government, by definition, is "socialist"; just, some of them are better at it than others.

The right likes to paint anything that sort of "helps" the people, as being "socialist"; as an excuse for not doing anything for anyone but themselves. At the same time, especially in Latin America, development does not equal socialism. Spending money on housing, bridges, roads, education, etc, etc, is not "socialism". It is not the same as a command economy. It is simply development. You got to spend some, to make some.
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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:45 am

AnciaVagar wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:52 pm
Personalities, not public policy, in play.
They are but you know that the assortment isn't that good when Lavín starts looking like a decent option for the next election. 😃

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:26 am

We are back to the same system here that caused 100+ years of stagnation and corruption. Whatever names are attached to the rival bands struggling for political control is irrelevant, just as the Pelucones and Pipiolos don't exactly strike a chord these days.

All the recent administrations have attempted to project a "caring" image, el buenismo, big on all sorts of "human rights" while not actually doing that much, except steadily improving their own personal finances by fair means or foul, and accruing more central control. Quietly moving in the same direction as Venezuela.
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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by admin » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:42 pm

much of Venezuela seems to be with out power now for 15 hours:
https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/ ... inthedark/

their blaiming it on marco rubio. even of not true, i like it. :lol:
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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by AnciaVagar » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:21 pm

admin wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:42 pm
much of Venezuela seems to be with out power now for 15 hours:
https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/ ... inthedark/

their blaiming it on marco rubio. even of not true, i like it. :lol:
Maduro says it's sabotage and maybe that's true. If all government activity can be called socialism, then it's no stretch to call chavismo's failings as their own intentional sabotage.

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by at46 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:34 pm

At least they didn't cut it during one of Maduro's speeches, like they did during one of Salvador Allende speeches back in 1973.

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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by admin » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:23 pm

guess we get to see what happens to a modern society, mas o menos, when the power goes out for an extended period:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03- ... ricity-war
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Re: Venezuela crisis

Post by admin » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:29 pm

this article says it all, very well:

https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/ ... from-home/
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