Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

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at46
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:14 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm
at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:09 pm
Wow, Cat, what are you smoking? There was no capitalism in capitalist Russia? Boy, you so need to educate yourself.
I said "no real freedom to run a business", not "no capitalism". There's capitalism in Russia nowadays too but as soon as you reach a certain threshold (depends on the region), be prepared to share with the people in power or to lose everything. Even running a fruit stand near a subway station usually involves some "protection".
When the cut off is a billion dollars in revenue per year, which I'm pretty sure it is, than does that really mean there's no business in Russia? In any Western democracy you'd have to start kowtowing a lot earlier. Oh, and try putting a hod dog stand on a good corner in London or Vancouver and then come tell me how that went for you :)

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:19 pm

OK - had a quick look about UK selling weapons. The UK is the no 2 weapons exporter after the US. The majority of its sales are to the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is a major one,perhaps their number one client and Yemen has also been there. They have also sold radar tech to China and some stuff to even Venezuala.

They say they review on a case by case basis and then make a decision about who to sell but it's very vague. In practice, it seems as long as you are not Iran or North Korea, you are probably going to be accepted.

I think there are a couple of issues here

1 - the UK is not very strong in many particular industries, we don't have iphones or cars or whatever. This is one of the few industries we lead in, so probably reluctant to concede.

2 - 50,000 people directly employed in this, and perhaps indirectly another 50,000-100,000. If they decide to stop selling to anyone dubious around 50,000-100,000 jobs are gone.

None of that is a justification, I think they should cut their weapons sales in half overnight given some of the customer list, but I can't see the government doing it. Certainly not with the Conservative party in power. They have actually increased arms sales. At the last election, the major opposition parties did campaign on ending/reducing arms sales to Saudi Arabia/Yemen but no major change to the status quo.

Source: This is based on BBC, Guardian and Independent reporting, and often based on the info that the British government itself releases. The last bit is based on the party manifestos.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:18 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:19 pm
OK - had a quick look about UK selling weapons. The UK is the no 2 weapons exporter after the US. The majority of its sales are to the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is a major one,perhaps their number one client and Yemen has also been there. They have also sold radar tech to China and some stuff to even Venezuala.

They say they review on a case by case basis and then make a decision about who to sell but it's very vague. In practice, it seems as long as you are not Iran or North Korea, you are probably going to be accepted.

I think there are a couple of issues here

1 - the UK is not very strong in many particular industries, we don't have iphones or cars or whatever. This is one of the few industries we lead in, so probably reluctant to concede.

2 - 50,000 people directly employed in this, and perhaps indirectly another 50,000-100,000. If they decide to stop selling to anyone dubious around 50,000-100,000 jobs are gone.

None of that is a justification, I think they should cut their weapons sales in half overnight given some of the customer list, but I can't see the government doing it. Certainly not with the Conservative party in power. They have actually increased arms sales. At the last election, the major opposition parties did campaign on ending/reducing arms sales to Saudi Arabia/Yemen but no major change to the status quo.

Source: This is based on BBC, Guardian and Independent reporting, and often based on the info that the British government itself releases. The last bit is based on the party manifestos.
So are you going to boycott UK or not? And if not, why would you boycott China when all they're doing is just trying to make a life for themselves?

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:38 am

at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:14 pm
When the cut off is a billion dollars in revenue per year, which I'm pretty sure it is, than does that really mean there's no business in Russia? In any Western democracy you'd have to start kowtowing a lot earlier.
No it isn't but whatever, it looks like I don't know a thing about running a business or encountering corruption in Eastern Europe.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by admin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:38 am

I believe here is a distinction that needs to be made between "socialism" as a western political philophy, in the context of asain cultures, and the " socialist / historical tendencies of asain cultures, for lack of better description, to sort of collectivly "march" as a population in the same direction or to conform. Much of that tends to sort of be out of nessecity of so many people living in close proximity.

Part of the error on the part of westerners in miss-reading the overall behavior and motives of asian cultures is i believe rooted in western myths and values of things like the "rugged indivdual", concepts of liberty, individualism, etc. By the way, historicaly, all relativly new in the west too.

I will never forget siting in a sociology class in the united states. There was this discussion of the history of indivdualism in the west. This girl that was japense, piped up. She said until she was about 19 years old, and moved to the united states, it never even occcured to her that she was an individual. We went in to this whole conversation of all the westerners, mostly americans, in the room trying to even wrap our brains around the concept.

I was not a big fan of sociology. I was philosophy major, but that conversation stuck with me because my specialization was in things such as philophy of identity, self, mind, language, and A.I.; basically, how do you have intelegence without identity sort of problems. Self-awarness.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:17 pm

at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:18 pm

So are you going to boycott UK or not? And if not, why would you boycott China when all they're doing is just trying to make a life for themselves?
No, I not going to boycott the UK because of one thing (weapons). China has a longer list of issues than the UK.

I think my reasoning for why we should perhaps consider reducing Chinese products has already been explained. Please see previous comments in this thread or in the thread Chile's Place in Latin America (notably pages 3-5).
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:29 pm

Britkid wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:17 pm
at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:18 pm

So are you going to boycott UK or not? And if not, why would you boycott China when all they're doing is just trying to make a life for themselves?
No, I not going to boycott the UK because of one thing (weapons). China has a longer list of issues than the UK.

I think my reasoning for why we should perhaps consider reducing Chinese products has already been explained. Please see previous comments in this thread or in the thread Chile's Place in Latin America (notably pages 3-5).
Who's we? You can live out your second-hand ideological hypocrisies any way you like, but please spare the innocent.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:48 pm

Britkid wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:17 pm
No, I not going to boycott the UK because of one thing (weapons). China has a longer list of issues than the UK.
There's little sense in following the popular ways of "fighting" evil and injustice. All of them are either fruitless or outright harmful: just look where outraging and liking-retweeting led the US elections a few years ago. Boycotting China is just slightly less useless than reposting an article about China being bad on Facebook.

The only way out of the bullshit world we have now is actually educating people. Find some materials online and run a workshop for the local kids about the topics you find important: ecology, civic education, critical thinking, etc.

This would be impactful but being angry about an oppressive government is just lazy protesting, sorry.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by admin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm

People in the U.S., and much of the western world, forget that the very reason for those long, long supply chains, where the nut comes from Japan and the bolt it fits on comes from China, and are sold as a unit through Korean, that is then installed in a factory in Mexico, was primarily motivated by companies wanting to gut the power of the Unions in western countries. In a sense, it was about lower cost of production, but that was just political code for screw the unions, without violating any union laws domestically.

Once upon a time, say GM, had very, very strong unions and produced everything inhouse, or at least close to their house, in the United States. Those unions had friends in other unions. Auto workers were friends with the machinest, the painters, the guys that clean the toilets, and so on. One would go on strike, and the others would join them. GM was over a barrel.

Then someone had the bright idea, that if you could source parts, from multiple countries and jurisdictions, you could take the fangs out of the Unions. Some little union in Iowa or wherever could not shut down national production of a company by itself. The company could just close the plant, and buy from somewhere else, or design that bit of the production line away. When was the last time you heard of a major company in the United States shutting down because of strike?

Sure it still happens, but not like it use to say back prior to about the early 80ś. It was also about the time americans started screaming about this country or that country, taking their jobs. It is also about the time, union and none-union wages started tanking or at least stagnating. About the last time real wages rose in the U.S., was early 1990s, say just about the time NAFTA and the explosions of free trade agreements with everyone and their monkeys uncle. Pretty much the same with Europe, except the Unions already had their teeth in the companies and politics of Europe. Still, you dont hear a whole lot of americans bitching about Germans taking their jobs (except for trump, but we already established he does not understand how the world works).
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by HybridAmbassador » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:16 pm

A naïve poster asked this simple question.
Why doesn't America invade Russia to stop Putin's dictatorship and make Russia a democracy?

Then a Russian answered back: Russia is already a democracy.

Russia is not a western democracy, but we can elect our officials.
n Russia, Western Democracy is associated with devastation in 1990s and war disasters in middle east. The country that often believe itself to be the most democratic of all elected Trump as president.

The western type of regime is seen in negative light based on past experience and past actions.
If western democracy is so great, work on the PR. Build a paradise on earth! And then people will start wondering if you’re doing something right. Currently western style of democracy is associated with USA, and USA does not resemble paradise.

By default, people should decide what they country to be. If you wish to enforce your government model onto populace that does not want that type of government… you are not being democratic, especially when you suggest a military action as a way to achieve it. That’s what warmongers would do.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by HybridAmbassador » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:27 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:19 pm
1 - the UK is not very strong in many particular industries, we don't have iphones or cars or whatever. This is one of the few industries we lead in, so probably reluctant to concede.
The UK had everything once not so distant ago. Margaret Thatcher went the easy way and started piece-selling their prized throphies one by one.
The UK had an enviable Automobile industry then the Brits also had many many other advanced industries too.

Reversing Britain's long-term economic decline. That was the daunting task Margaret Thatcher set herself when she arrived in Downing Street in May 1979 at the end of a traumatic decade that had seen a three-day week, inflation topping 25%, a bailout from the International Monetary Fund and the winter of discontent.

She gave it her best shot. The last remnants of the postwar consensus were swept away in the ensuing decade – a period that saw the crushing of the trade unions, the Big Bang in the City, council house sales, the privatisation of large chunks of industry, the encouragement of inward investment, tax cuts, attempts to roll back the state, a deep manufacturing recession, a boom in North Sea oil production, and support for the creation of a single market in Europe.


As far as her supporters are concerned, this radical transformation worked. Britain ceased to be the sick man of Europe and entered the 1990s with its reputation enhanced. The economy had become more productive, more competitive and more profitable. Deep-seated and long overdue reforms of the 1980s paved the way for the long 16-year boom between 1992 and 2008.

To her detractors, Thatcher is the prime minister who wiped out more than 15% of Britain's industrial base with her dogmatic monetarism, squandered the once-in-a-lifetime windfall of North Sea oil on unemployment pay and tax cuts, and made the UK the unbalanced, unequal country it is today.

The truth lies somewhere between these extremes. Thatcher came to power when the economy was approaching a moment of truth after three decades of poor performance relative to other western countries. Had Jim Callaghan won the 1979 election, he too would have faced the challenge of how to modernise an economy beset by high inflation, weak management and poor industrial relations.

Indeed, many of the policy innovations associated with Thatcher had already been pioneered by her predecessor. Full employment had been ditched in 1976, while Labour had introduced monetary targets and cash limits for Whitehall departments while Denis Healey was at the Treasury.

Nor, contrary to myth, did Thatcherism emerge fully formed in May 1979. Privatisation did not feature in the Conservative election campaign, while the tougher approach to trade union reform had only really become evident since the winter of discontent, and even then was a gradual process.

That said, by the mid-1980s it was clear that the Conservative government's economic policy was based on a handful of core principles. Firstly, control of inflation rather than the pursuit of full employment was the centrepiece of macro economic strategy. The government's job was to keep inflation low, not to boost growth through demand management.

Secondly, the balance of power in industrial relations was shifted decisively in favour of employers. Three separate pieces of legislation between 1980 and 1984 attacked the closed shop, toughened up the laws on picketing and imposed secret strike ballots. Symbolically, the key moment was the defeat of the miners after the year-long pit strike in March 1985.

Thirdly, industrial policy was all but abandoned. The state retained control of some nationalised industries – the railways, for example – but BT, British Airways, British Steel, British Gas and the British Airports Authority were among the big companies sold off. Thatcher did not believe in "picking winners"; instead she preferred to rely on market forces to ensure the survival of the fittest. To the extent that there was an industrial strategy, it was to sell Britain as a destination for Japanese car companies and to shift the focus of the economy away from manufacturing towards financial services.

Fourthly, policy was aimed at those who, according to the prime minister, wanted to get on in life. There were big tax cuts for those on the highest incomes, driven by the belief that this would encourage entrepreneurship. But there were also cuts for basic-rate taxpayers: the 1988 budget, for example, cut the top rate of tax from 60% to 40% and the standard rate from 27% to 25%. Council house sales and advertising campaigns that encouraged the public to buy shares in privatised companies were meant to broaden the appeal of capitalism.

Narrowly judged, the Thatcher economic revolution was a success. Britain's relative decline came to an end, although that was more due to slowdowns in countries such as France and Germany than an acceleration in UK productivity growth. The number of days lost through strikes tumbled. Nissan's arrival in the north-east showed that Britain was no longer the west's industrial pariah.

On the other hand, growth has been depressed because weak trade unions can no longer ensure wage increases keep pace with inflation. The government's welfare bill has been swollen by tax credits and housing benefit caused by the labour market reforms and council house sales of the 1980s. Britain's record on innovation and investment have been extremely poor, while the hollowing out of manufacturing left the economy over-dependent on the de-regulated City. Oil helped Thatcher paper over the cracks, but Britain's age-old problem – finding a way to pay its way in the world – remains. The last time the UK ran a trade surplus was the year of the Falklands war.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:44 pm

admin wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:12 pm
People in the U.S., and much of the western world, forget that the very reason for those long, long supply chains, where the nut comes from Japan and the bolt it fits on comes from China, and are sold as a unit through Korean, that is then installed in a factory in Mexico, was primarily motivated by companies wanting to gut the power of the Unions in western countries. In a sense, it was about lower cost of production, but that was just political code for screw the unions, without violating any union laws domestically.

Once upon a time, say GM, had very, very strong unions and produced everything inhouse, or at least close to their house, in the United States. Those unions had friends in other unions. Auto workers were friends with the machinest, the painters, the guys that clean the toilets, and so on. One would go on strike, and the others would join them. GM was over a barrel.

Then someone had the bright idea, that if you could source parts, from multiple countries and jurisdictions, you could take the fangs out of the Unions. Some little union in Iowa or wherever could not shut down national production of a company by itself. The company could just close the plant, and buy from somewhere else, or design that bit of the production line away. When was the last time you heard of a major company in the United States shutting down because of strike?

Sure it still happens, but not like it use to say back prior to about the early 80ś. It was also about the time americans started screaming about this country or that country, taking their jobs. It is also about the time, union and none-union wages started tanking or at least stagnating. About the last time real wages rose in the U.S., was early 1990s, say just about the time NAFTA and the explosions of free trade agreements with everyone and their monkeys uncle. Pretty much the same with Europe, except the Unions already had their teeth in the companies and politics of Europe. Still, you dont hear a whole lot of americans bitching about Germans taking their jobs (except for trump, but we already established he does not understand how the world works).
It's not just the unions though, but all kinds of trade/professional associations fattened up and co-opted by the government using free money post 1971. Plus the growth of stupid government itself with its idiotic regulation of physical economy while at the same time deregulating the financial sector, which always pays better than manufacturing when the dough is free.

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