Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

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at46
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:59 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm
admin wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:53 pm
A less badly behaving china on human right, democracy, freedom of speech, environment, and playing by international trade standards, etc, etc, is directly linked to chinas ability to follow through with its development.
Are you saying that improved human rights, democracy and freedom of speech
Oh, I'm sure you meant liberté, égalité, fraternité, didn't you :)
Britkid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm
Economic growth/development is not necessarily even a good thing now we have climate change and other environmental issues and expanding populations and limited resources.
It's very telling to hear that from a Brit. I mean after 200 years of British rule over India 500 million people there still defecate in the open. What a royal achievement for the benevolent civilizers!

Compare that with the evil "reverse empire" of Russia that built roads, schools and hospitals on its periphery - all at the expense of the Russian core and strictly following the party line. What a waste, right?

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:29 pm

at46 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:59 pm
Britkid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm
admin wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:53 pm
A less badly behaving china on human right, democracy, freedom of speech, environment, and playing by international trade standards, etc, etc, is directly linked to chinas ability to follow through with its development.
Are you saying that improved human rights, democracy and freedom of speech
Oh, I'm sure you meant liberté, égalité, fraternité, didn't you :)
Britkid wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm
Economic growth/development is not necessarily even a good thing now we have climate change and other environmental issues and expanding populations and limited resources.
It's very telling to hear that from a Brit. I mean after 200 years of British rule over India 500 million people there still defecate in the open. What a royal achievement for the benevolent civilizers!

Compare that with the evil "reverse empire" of Russia that built roads, schools and hospitals on its periphery - all at the expense of the Russian core and strictly following the party line. What a waste, right?
2018-06-22
What the British Did to India
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by Neil Godfrey

Oh my god. The lies we were taught in school. I have just finished listening to an interview with (v.i.p.) Shashi Tharoor about his book on the British rule of India: Inglorious Empire: What the British Did To India.

https://vridar.org/2018/06/22/what-the- ... -to-india/
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:07 pm

Yep, Britkid, please don't take it as an offense but if you're going to start boycotting countries based on their bad behavior then the UK is a nice addition to your list:
https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:47 pm

Most of the crimes of the Brits, the more major ones, were carried out years ago. It was a different age. The reason the Brits carried out more crimes in their colonies than other countries during the empire/colonial period was simply that they were more powerful at the time than the French, Dutch etc. If you look at what the Belgians did to Congo then we can be thankful that they only had a few colonies at the time. What the Brits did would likely have been done by many others, had they had the power to do so.

If you take the long view of history ethical behavour has simply improved over time. Each empire, going from say the mongols to the Spaniards to the British empire to the US imperialism of the last 70 years (OK, I missed a few) has been ethically relatively less bad than the last one. It was the ethics of the times, and who happenedto be the most powerful.

We are not going to boycott a country based on the behaviour of people that are now dead. The British people of today do not represent the people of yesteryear.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:09 pm

Also, what we need to understand is that China is a communist country. The major companies are controlled by the government in one way or another, or at least theoretically could be.

You want to boycott the UK or US government, just boycott their government. Don't need to boycott all the companies.

Barack Obama went to Steve Jobs and suggested that he build iphones in the US, and got laughed out of there.

Here's how some US companies reacted to US immigration ban on muslim countries, according to the atlantic: "Tim Cook wrote to Apple employees, criticizing Trump’s immigration order in uncompromising terms, as did Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg. Microsoft and Amazon have since announced plans to challenge the order in court."

Elon Musk,who has publically said he does not support Trump, withdrew from a presidential council later on - meaning he essentially now refuses to even talk to him - all the while making electric cars that totally contradict Trump's love on fossil fuels and pulling out of Paris accord.

Buying a product from a company in a Western company in a capitalist country doesn't mean you are supporting the government. I don't see, how for instance, boycotting a Tesla as a protest against US bombings in the middle east makes any sense.

Can we imagine if Xi Jinping asked the CEO of Huawei to join some kind of leaders council and the CEO publically refused, citing opposition to Xi Jinping's policy of mass incarceration of muslims? (Assuming it's even possible for him to get such a statement on state TV or the internet without it being deleted.) A few days later there would be a new CEO of Huawei.

For all we know, Xi Jinping is on the phone right now to the CEO of Huawei suggesting to him that a production location be moved. None of us would ever know. And that "suggestion" will not be likely be refused.

Totally different situation.

To a large extent, if you buy a Chinese product you are supporting the Chinese communist party which nowadays is kind of in a way the world's biggest corporation. It's not a very clear situation but all the books and articles I've read on the topic broadly support this viewpoint.

And that's a key reason why Xi Jinping is likely the most powerful person on the planet right now by a clear margin. https://www.forbes.com/powerful-people/list/ The other is China's lage population, and therefore its government has power over more people.

If you buy an iphone, you are just supporting Apple, not the US government.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by admin » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:03 pm

China is sooooo not a communist country. A dictaorship, ologopoly, whatever; but, communist it definetly is not.

I love the party official that in an interview was asked what about marxism?

He said, "no one understands marx".

By the way, you know you really pissed off china when the head of the "communist party" xi is making reference to bible passages about china not turning the other cheek.

One intetesting anyalisis i heard was the reason russia has not transitioned to open markets as well as china, after the end of "hard communism".

china, even durring the dynasties, Even durring the cultural revolution, Always had a thriving market ecinomy of trade in goods and services. It was messed with by the communist party, disrupting the efficency, but it went on.

Russia never really had that under the tzars. It was always sort of a tightly controled, centrally planned state. Today we have most the wealth concentrated within a few blocks of red square, like it has always have. Just now they have two bently dealers, with a ferrari dealer, sandwiched between.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:19 pm

Britkid, I’m aware of Belgium and others doing bad things in the past. What I’m trying to say is that you’re not being tough enough on the Western empires. The only difference is that they outsource suffering and death while China is oppressing its own citizens. Britain still participates in NATO conflicts and sells weapons to any dictator who can pay.

Admin, yes, since the fall of the Novgorod Republic there was no real freedom to run a business. Muscovites didn’t respect anybody’s rights (check the “oprichnina” in Wiki) and the authorities of the Russian Empire continued the “do what you want if you have power” trend.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by HybridAmbassador » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:26 pm

If a foreign Business to be established in Xi Jingpin's kingdom. Remember to never give up these: regardless of having a 51% or not.

1) The power to appoint and remove the China joint venture’s Legal Representative.

)2 The power to appoint and remove the General Manager of the China joint venture company. The joint venture agreement must make clear that the General Manager is an employee of the joint venture company employed entirely at the discretion of the Legal Representative (whom you have the power to appoint and remove). Note that this agreement will be enforced under Chinese law and its official version should therefore be in Chinese.

3) Control over the company seal, or “chop.” The joint venture partner that controls the joint venture’s registered company seal has the power to make binding contracts on behalf of the joint venture company and to deal with the joint venture company’s banks and other key service providers. The annals of history are filled with foreign companies getting shut out of their China joint ventures after losing control of the seal.

The Chinese side to a joint venture will typically refuse to give the foreign party the above three measures of control. It will argue that it should control the joint venture for reasons of both efficiency and expertise. In many cases, it also will claim that it cannot bring its political connections, or guanxi, into play unless its own people fill the Legal Representative and General Manager slots.

This argument is usually just a smoke screen for the Chinese side trying to secure the true levers of joint venture control. For more on the difficulties of China joint ventures, check out How We Really Feel About China Joint Ventures. We Love Them AND We Hate Them.
Using a Chinese lawyer or a “China consultancy” increases your risks. Chinese lawyers are not bound by the same duties of loyalty as American lawyers and it is not unheard of for them to work on behalf of your Chinese counterpart to get the joint venture deal done.

This may be because the Chinese lawyer is getting paid by the Chinese company or it may simply be because the Chinese lawyer knows he or she will make more money if the joint venture deal concludes. We are aware of consultancies that have represented American and European companies on joint ventures while getting a percentage of the deal from the Chinese side if it goes through.
If you want control over your China joint venture, you should follow the rules set forth above. Otherwise you might find yourself in a venture with no legal right to guide it.
You have been warned.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:09 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:19 pm
Admin, yes, since the fall of the Novgorod Republic there was no real freedom to run a business. Muscovites didn’t respect anybody’s rights (check the “oprichnina” in Wiki) and the authorities of the Russian Empire continued the “do what you want if you have power” trend.
Wow, Cat, what are you smoking? There was no capitalism in capitalist Russia? Boy, you so need to educate yourself.

Number of chartered corporations in Russia in 1913: 4283

https://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/ICPSR/studies/9142

The RUSCORP database is a body of machine-readable information illuminating the rise of capitalist institutions in tsarist Russia. Specifically, it presents profiles of all for-profit corporations founded in the Russian Empire (except in the Grand Duchy of Finland) from the time of Peter the Great to the eve of World War I. RUSCORP describes the initial state of these companies at the time of their incorporation as well as their condition in 1847, 1869, 1874, 1892, 1905, and 1914. Major items covered by the data include the amount of basic capital, the number and price of shares, the location of headquarters and main operations, industrial classifications of major economic functions, the citizenship, ethnicity, sex, and social status of founders and managers, and tsarist restrictions regarding the ethnicity or citizenship of stockholders, management, and other key employees. The database also contains profiles of all foreign corporations operating in the Russian Empire in 1914.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:03 pm

To the admin probably you are right that China is not a communist country; perhaps I was wrong about that. In some ways it is more capitalist with open markets and private property ownership. However in one specific aspect it is more communist/socialist and that is greater government control and influence in production and economy and private companies. That is what I was really referring to.

As to Russia according to what I read it seems that prior to Gorbachev it was a very statist, communist, country with very, very little, almost no private enterprise. Then suddenly in the 1990s the opening up of the economy to capitalism led to a somewhat wild, wild west capitalism in the 1990s during which time private businessmen -such as Gusinsky who had his own TV channel that was critical of the Kremlin - became quite powerful. So the comment "since the fall of the Novgorod Republic there was no real freedom to run a business" might be debatable since there was freedom to run a business in the 1990s although not with reliable security and justice and avoidance of corruption. However it seems that in this era there were competing power centres of the Yeltsin Kremlin and the private business rather than total Kremlin dominance like before. As far as I understand it, some rich businessman at that time were richer than top politicians, and perhaps almost equally powerful in some cases.

Then Putin took over and killed the power of these businessmen (oligarchs) meaning that from 2000 to 2003 their power decliend significantly: the oligarchs have had to accept the new power of Putin over business, stay out of politics, at the very least stay fairly neutral, or leave the country. Gusinsky and Berezovsky left the country, and had parts of their assets and wealth (the millions or billions they made through admittedly dubious means) appropriated (stolen) while Khodorkovsky was literally thrown in the gulag in 2003 and that was really the end of the oligarch era. Since then, the oligarchs have had to submit to Putin's rule. Those that still exist, like Roman Abramovich, cannot oppose Putin. These days exiled Russians tend to hang out in London.

Now Putin has made things somewhat more similar to China, or old soviet Russia, in some ways. The freedom of speech and political opposition and free media of the 1990s is long gone. But it is like China that is sort of like a capitalist country controlled by the government. Apparently Putin's opinion has to be checked before making major business decisions - like a merger or investment - and Putin himself may have billions stashed in the Carribean (although no-one in the West seems to know if he does or not).

I don't know so much about private business before the communist revoluton but there was some. The business-focused newspaper in Russia Kommersant had this to say: ‘This newspaper was established in 1909,’ ran its masthead, ‘and was not issued between 1917 and 1990 for reasons beyond editorial control.’ As if 1917-1990 was just a little break before the return to a normal business environment!

Note: I have never been to Russia.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:29 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:19 pm
you’re not being tough enough on the Western empires. The only difference is that they outsource suffering and death while China is oppressing its own citizens. Britain still participates in NATO conflicts and sells weapons to any dictator who can pay.
They don't sell to any dictator, that is not quite true I don't think? At the very least they will not sell to some of the worst regimes, although I do think they do sell to far too many. Maybe I will look that up later.

I won't seek to defend Britain in an absolute sense here, but I want to make the argument that they are relatively less bad than China. In China, you can be arrested and even killed simply for speaking the truth and standing up for rights and doing or saying nothing bad.There is deliberate malicious evil.

The moral choices of Britain are more grey. Like do we airstrike this chemical weapons depo or Islamic state site, accepting the risk of civilian deaths which happen by accident - not deliberately - it is quite an important moral difference.

Also the sheer number of people oppressed by China is much greater.

A chilean told me some weeks ago that he went to London in the Pinochet era and was about 18 at the time. He went to Buckingham palace and from there he said he wandered into the park and found to his surprise there was a man standing up before a crowd berating the Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) in the most rude and angry way. (Perhaps it may have been speaker's corner in Hyde Park, although he couldn't remember). Seeing a policeman nearby, he assumed that the protester would be arrested and, to his surprise, found that the person carried on shouting while the policeman stood by. Confused, the Chilean went to speak to the policeman and asked him what was the point of his presence there, and the policeman explained that he was there to make sure the man's view was heard and that no-one could stop him from giving his opinion.

You can imagine how the Chilean must have felt to hear this, given the situation he lived in at the time. It was an almost incomprehensible, made a tremendous impression on him and he said he returned to Chile a determined revolutionary.

Meanwhile in China they are busy trying to delete any trace of winnie the pooh from the internet. The contrast is clear. It is about freedom and truth.
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm

at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:09 pm
Wow, Cat, what are you smoking? There was no capitalism in capitalist Russia? Boy, you so need to educate yourself.
I said "no real freedom to run a business", not "no capitalism". There's capitalism in Russia nowadays too but as soon as you reach a certain threshold (depends on the region), be prepared to share with the people in power or to lose everything. Even running a fruit stand near a subway station usually involves some "protection".
Britkid wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:29 pm
I won't seek to defend Britain in an absolute sense here, but I want to make the argument that they are relatively less bad than China. In China, you can be arrested and even killed simply for speaking the truth and standing up for rights and doing or saying nothing bad.There is deliberate malicious evil.
Sure, it's a better place to live and express yourself, similar to all other Western countries. But all of them are fine with doing business with China and sheltering China's money.

All big entities are "evil", even the modern Chilean state is kind of evil despite having very humble ambitions. I believe we shouldn't go easy on any of them just because one oppressed 10 people and not 10 millions.

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