Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:55 pm

I have access to all three recent articles on that site regarding the closure.

Maersk official releases stick to the market changed in those three years from under capacity to "heavy overcapacity" and of the problem with supply of local inputs for the production at the Chile plant (this is supposedly the basis for the doubts early on but the claim is that the plant was almost finished when this realization became clearer and that it would be best to just complete the plant and that the company would cover this shortcoming).

The former head of the plant who moved on after the construction of the plant but before production has pointed to low morale, low productivity, lack of training, high absence, excess sick leave, then the strike back in October. The publication is waiting on Maersk's response to the guy's comments. The labor aspect was the reason for the visit and report by the Labor Ministry last year:

"the factory was struggling with significant employee absence and misuse of sick leave, and the contributions provided to employees without health insurance were so generous that they could, in and of themselves, make employees stay absent, as it was possible to maintain a full salary even when reducing work hours due to illness. The report also points out that language barriers, cultural barriers and the fact that the factory was located far away from the rest of the Maersk Group made operations difficult."
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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 pm

With the women’s’ rights I was trying to make a very broad comparison with another struggle that is eventually having some success after a long time. I don’t mean for my analogies to be that close to each other or anything.

When I made my ranking of countries ethically (as mentioned at the start of the Chile’s place in Latin America thread), averaging various metrics such as corruption, democracy and freedom rankings, China came 139th out of 172nd, so near the bottom but not right at the bottom, there are 33 countries below them which includes Russia but mostly small countries with either low populations and/or far less important in the global economy.

China is very important in the world economy, so it concerns me more. China’s lack of freedoms and human rights concerns affect a greater number of people and so are a greater concern. The other reason is that I am just reacting to what’s on the forum – I didn’t start this thread, and no-one has started a thread about the sorry state of Turkmenistan, Iran or the Congo, so I haven’t given an opinion there.

The power and influence of China and the US in the world is very high, so lack of ethics in those companies does have an effect on the rest of the world, which is why ethical issues in those countries are of greater concern. It's part of the reason why Trump is so worrying even though there are probably at least 10 or 20 worse leaders in the world.

I don’t need to worry about the morality of buying Turkmenistani smart phones or Iranian cars because they don’t exist. I don't need to worry about Congo companies investing in Chile or elsewhere in a big way because it's not going to happen.

But no I am not just picking on China. I also think Europe should stop buying Russian gas and oil, that we should consider boycotting products made by companies in the occupied West Bank, that we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia etc etc.

The 10% figure (of increased cost of living if China fell apart or wasn’t a trading partner) is just a quick guess, I thought about it for 5 seconds, I can’t defend that I’m afraid! Just a gut feel.

Democracy is falling back in the world in recent years I agree but hopefully a blip in the longer term trend of improvement.

No, I don’t believe a more expensive life would be the only consequence of a failed China. I wasn’t saying that and I was talking about impacts to other countries, not China itself.

Let’s hope China doesn’t fail but retains its economic strength while reforming its human rights issues. This is clearly not happening now but maybe it will.

China is not the worst country in the world for human rights (that's North Korea in my view) but it is the most important in a global context.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by frozen-north » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:38 am

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
.....the problem with supply of local inputs for the production at the Chile plant (this is supposedly the basis for the doubts early on but the claim is that the plant was almost finished when this realization became clearer and that it would be best to just complete the plant and that the company would cover this shortcoming).
One would think that they would already know what was and what was not available in Chile before they committed the money. Incompetents??
.... The report also points out that language barriers, cultural barriers and the fact that the factory was located far away from the rest of the Maersk Group made operations difficult."
Even this part sounds odd. They speak Danish in China? And again, They didn't know where Chile was located?

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:05 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 pm
With the women’s’ rights I was trying to make a very broad comparison with another struggle that is eventually having some success after a long time. I don’t mean for my analogies to be that close to each other or anything.

When I made my ranking of countries ethically (as mentioned at the start of the Chile’s place in Latin America thread), averaging various metrics such as corruption, democracy and freedom rankings, China came 139th out of 172nd, so near the bottom but not right at the bottom, there are 33 countries below them which includes Russia but mostly small countries with either low populations and/or far less important in the global economy.

China is very important in the world economy, so it concerns me more. China’s lack of freedoms and human rights concerns affect a greater number of people and so are a greater concern. The other reason is that I am just reacting to what’s on the forum – I didn’t start this thread, and no-one has started a thread about the sorry state of Turkmenistan, Iran or the Congo, so I haven’t given an opinion there.

The power and influence of China and the US in the world is very high, so lack of ethics in those companies does have an effect on the rest of the world, which is why ethical issues in those countries are of greater concern. It's part of the reason why Trump is so worrying even though there are probably at least 10 or 20 worse leaders in the world.

I don’t need to worry about the morality of buying Turkmenistani smart phones or Iranian cars because they don’t exist. I don't need to worry about Congo companies investing in Chile or elsewhere in a big way because it's not going to happen.

But no I am not just picking on China. I also think Europe should stop buying Russian gas and oil, that we should consider boycotting products made by companies in the occupied West Bank, that we should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia etc etc.

The 10% figure (of increased cost of living if China fell apart or wasn’t a trading partner) is just a quick guess, I thought about it for 5 seconds, I can’t defend that I’m afraid! Just a gut feel.

Democracy is falling back in the world in recent years I agree but hopefully a blip in the longer term trend of improvement.

No, I don’t believe a more expensive life would be the only consequence of a failed China. I wasn’t saying that and I was talking about impacts to other countries, not China itself.

Let’s hope China doesn’t fail but retains its economic strength while reforming its human rights issues. This is clearly not happening now but maybe it will.

China is not the worst country in the world for human rights (that's North Korea in my view) but it is the most important in a global context.
Ok fair enough, thanks for taking the time to explain.
In the Lakes Region Chile for 6 years. It looks like New Zealand in some ways, and is nearly at the bottom of the world too, but there the similarities end.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:22 am

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:55 pm
I have access to all three recent articles on that site regarding the closure.

Maersk official releases stick to the market changed in those three years from under capacity to "heavy overcapacity" and of the problem with supply of local inputs for the production at the Chile plant (this is supposedly the basis for the doubts early on but the claim is that the plant was almost finished when this realization became clearer and that it would be best to just complete the plant and that the company would cover this shortcoming).

The former head of the plant who moved on after the construction of the plant but before production has pointed to low morale, low productivity, lack of training, high absence, excess sick leave, then the strike back in October. The publication is waiting on Maersk's response to the guy's comments. The labor aspect was the reason for the visit and report by the Labor Ministry last year:

"the factory was struggling with significant employee absence and misuse of sick leave, and the contributions provided to employees without health insurance were so generous that they could, in and of themselves, make employees stay absent, as it was possible to maintain a full salary even when reducing work hours due to illness. The report also points out that language barriers, cultural barriers and the fact that the factory was located far away from the rest of the Maersk Group made operations difficult."
I can't comment on Maersk, but I know what has happened with another foreign owned company that I used to work for , who are still going, but the are now have 20 percent owned by a rich Chilean individual .
Their Strategy was basically the land is cheap the climate is the same and labour is cheap so obviously we can replicate what as worked so well in our home country it will work in Chile, as the say in Chile, Pico! After a decade or so I still don't think they have turned a profit, they have had to ask for top ups from shareholders,they have had to restructure bank loans, they have gone looking for more funds by offering more shares, in short I guess they they think they are playing the long game, as one small shareholder told me, hopefully my grandchildren will see something out of my shareholding, and their best outcome is that some one makes them an offer and buys the whole operation and thinks they can make a go of it.
In the Lakes Region Chile for 6 years. It looks like New Zealand in some ways, and is nearly at the bottom of the world too, but there the similarities end.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:44 pm

Britkid wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 pm
With the women’s’ rights I was trying to make a very broad comparison with another struggle that is eventually having some success after a long time. I don’t mean for my analogies to be that close to each other or anything.

When I made my ranking of countries ethically (as mentioned at the start of the Chile’s place in Latin America thread), averaging various metrics such as corruption, democracy and freedom rankings, China came 139th out of 172nd, so near the bottom but not right at the bottom, there are 33 countries below them which includes Russia but mostly small countries with either low populations and/or far less important in the global economy.
The gall of rating countries you've never even been to. On ethics, no less. A quintessentially British pooping fest.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by at46 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:16 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:55 pm
I have access to all three recent articles on that site regarding the closure.

Maersk official releases stick to the market changed in those three years from under capacity to "heavy overcapacity" and of the problem with supply of local inputs for the production at the Chile plant (this is supposedly the basis for the doubts early on but the claim is that the plant was almost finished when this realization became clearer and that it would be best to just complete the plant and that the company would cover this shortcoming).

The former head of the plant who moved on after the construction of the plant but before production has pointed to low morale, low productivity, lack of training, high absence, excess sick leave, then the strike back in October. The publication is waiting on Maersk's response to the guy's comments. The labor aspect was the reason for the visit and report by the Labor Ministry last year:

"the factory was struggling with significant employee absence and misuse of sick leave, and the contributions provided to employees without health insurance were so generous that they could, in and of themselves, make employees stay absent, as it was possible to maintain a full salary even when reducing work hours due to illness. The report also points out that language barriers, cultural barriers and the fact that the factory was located far away from the rest of the Maersk Group made operations difficult."
Maersk ships had a couple of serious accidents recently - Maersk Shanghai and Maersk Honam. Then, closer to home, Rothschild's backed Rio Tinto bid for the SQM stake fell through. Maersk being a Rothschild asset, and Chile seemingly turning away from the Brits recently may have been the last straw that broke the camel's back.

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:37 pm

at46 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:16 pm
eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:55 pm
I have access to all three recent articles on that site regarding the closure.

Maersk official releases stick to the market changed in those three years from under capacity to "heavy overcapacity" and of the problem with supply of local inputs for the production at the Chile plant (this is supposedly the basis for the doubts early on but the claim is that the plant was almost finished when this realization became clearer and that it would be best to just complete the plant and that the company would cover this shortcoming).

The former head of the plant who moved on after the construction of the plant but before production has pointed to low morale, low productivity, lack of training, high absence, excess sick leave, then the strike back in October. The publication is waiting on Maersk's response to the guy's comments. The labor aspect was the reason for the visit and report by the Labor Ministry last year:

"the factory was struggling with significant employee absence and misuse of sick leave, and the contributions provided to employees without health insurance were so generous that they could, in and of themselves, make employees stay absent, as it was possible to maintain a full salary even when reducing work hours due to illness. The report also points out that language barriers, cultural barriers and the fact that the factory was located far away from the rest of the Maersk Group made operations difficult."
Maersk ships had a couple of serious accidents recently - Maersk Shanghai and Maersk Honam. Then, closer to home, Rothschild's backed Rio Tinto bid for the SQM stake fell through. Maersk being a Rothschild asset, and Chile seemingly turning away from the Brits recently may have been the last straw that broke the camel's back.
Love it! I always like a conspiracy point of view to balance out the official story given.
Generally, just a SPAM KILLER. You are on your own in this forum. My personal mission here is done.

BUT when necessary, by way of ridicule and truth revelation we shalt do war.

--eeuunikkeiexpat

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:23 pm

Maersk will continue to operate in Chile in one form or another. So they are not going risk antagonizing the authorities by badmouthing the country, nor the unions by criticizing the workforce. Hence the rather bland official statement.

From El Libero , referring to last years strike:
Producto de esta huelga, varios clientes en nuestro país cancelan sus pedidos y contratan contenedores refrigerados en otras empresas. La actitud de los trabajadores, azuzados por la CUT, causa alto impacto en los ejecutivos de la empresa, especialmente los daneses. La planta continúa su operación, sin cumplir sus metas de producción y ventas. Aún así, en el mes de Abril de 2018, los trabajadores comienzan movilizarse y a elaborar un nuevo pliego de peticiones.
My theory is that having experienced Chilean productivity, work practices, and violent wage negotiating "tactics" like the barricades, the plant damage, the manager's car set on fire etc, with the prospect of more of the same to come this year, the Danes basically said "sod this, we're gone".
Après moi, le déluge

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by Britkid » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:10 pm

at46 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:44 pm
Britkid wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:18 pm
With the women’s’ rights I was trying to make a very broad comparison with another struggle that is eventually having some success after a long time. I don’t mean for my analogies to be that close to each other or anything.

When I made my ranking of countries ethically (as mentioned at the start of the Chile’s place in Latin America thread), averaging various metrics such as corruption, democracy and freedom rankings, China came 139th out of 172nd, so near the bottom but not right at the bottom, there are 33 countries below them which includes Russia but mostly small countries with either low populations and/or far less important in the global economy.
The gall of rating countries you've never even been to. On ethics, no less. A quintessentially British pooping fest.
These ratings are all from others. All I did was average them.

Whether or not I've visited a country is going to make a tiny difference in terms of my ability to assess its levels of freedom and democracy given that I already have access to reports and journalist articles on the issues, from people that are much more informed than anyone making a short visit.

I think we need to get past this mindset and emotional reaction that there is something wrong with striving to live an ethical lifestyle, or criticising others that do bad things. It makes no sense that when I say something like "um, China should probably not imprison thousands of people in educating camps to try and change their religion" the reaction is to say things about "ah, but what about x" rather than agree.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by frozen-north » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:47 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Maersk will continue to operate in Chile in one form or another. So they are not going risk antagonizing the authorities by badmouthing the country, nor the unions by criticizing the workforce. Hence the rather bland official statement.

From El Libero , referring to last years strike:
Producto de esta huelga, varios clientes en nuestro país cancelan sus pedidos y contratan contenedores refrigerados en otras empresas. La actitud de los trabajadores, azuzados por la CUT, causa alto impacto en los ejecutivos de la empresa, especialmente los daneses. La planta continúa su operación, sin cumplir sus metas de producción y ventas. Aún así, en el mes de Abril de 2018, los trabajadores comienzan movilizarse y a elaborar un nuevo pliego de peticiones.
My theory is that having experienced Chilean productivity, work practices, and violent wage negotiating "tactics" like the barricades, the plant damage, the manager's car set on fire etc, with the prospect of more of the same to come this year, the Danes basically said "sod this, we're gone".
Nah. I still prefer the conspiracy theories better. And just because some people like to focus on the evils of labour it should not stop us from looking at what else is there.

From a 2015 article:
Keep in mind that during the past five years, the container-shipping industry has faced severe economic headwinds as a result of the collapse of global trade after the 2008 financial crisis and the subsequent slow recovery. The sector has suffered from serious overcapacity, falling freight rates, and major price volatility.

https://www.bcg.com/en-ca/publications/ ... erate.aspx

And from 2017:
CEO: Cyber Attack to Cost Maersk Up to USD 300 Mn

The cyber attack that hit Danish-based A.P. Moller – Maersk on June 27 is expected to damage the company’s business performance by up to USD 300-million in the upcoming quarter.

https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/ ... sd-300-mn/

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Re: Chinese corp. wants to build an electric car factory in Chile

Post by AnciaVagar » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 pm

Britkid wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:10 pm
These ratings are all from others. All I did was average them...
It's difficult enough to tease out the few objective factors in the ratings (and any other study) from among all the subjective noise and value judgements. Arithmetically averaging disparate factors further destroys meaning and propagates bias.

In matters of opinion, Chileans consistently rate their country lower than the hard metrics do.

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