Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by admin » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:24 pm

I discovered my Toyota has a cabin filter. I bought an charcoal / arm and hammer cabin filter. Frigen magic when I drive through any area with wood smoke.

Now, once you step out of the car, a respirator and a space suit perhaps. :lol:
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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by Space Cat » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
Anyway if you are thinking of moving to Chile, do not move to any urban area in southern Chile unless you dont mind bad air quality for half the year, a few kms out of town is normally fine, due to less houses.
Valdivia has a separate rich island which is more sparsely populated than the central or eastern neighborhoods. It's on the west, so it gets all the wind from the ocean in winter.

Still, this applies:
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by at46 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.
The mentality is probably "If I'm going to be the only one to upgrade my stove, it's not going to change a thing, so why bother?". A government program is needed that'll certify every stove in the country, kinda like they certify every vehicle in revision technica.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by 41southchile » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 pm

at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm
Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.
The mentality is probably "If I'm going to be the only one to upgrade my stove, it's not going to change a thing, so why bother?". A government program is needed that'll certify every stove in the country, kinda like they certify every vehicle in revision technica.
Unfortunately you are probably right , but it's a screwed up mentality by ignorant people, maybe they should read the starfish story.
I know it's not an exclusive Chilean trait but it seems very ingrained here in a lot of people that do not have the capacity to think logically or have any concept of consequences , again I'm not talking about poor people., Because Its clear its definitely not an income or wealth thing, but I guess I possibly would have thought those that have had more education and been exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking may have had more of a friggin clue, some do, the majority don't.
I guess money doesn't buy common sense or stop you from being an ignorant human being, it is certainly proved here, time after time, for so many different things.
It's those same clowns that say their vote doesn't make a difference and they are lucky to have a 40 percent turnout for elections, then they moan about the government not doing enough for them.
A government program may make some minor difference, but you can't regulate against ignorance or just being a jerk .

Starfish story.


A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.

She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, “Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You can’t save all these starfish. You can’t begin to make a difference!”

The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied, “Well, I made a difference to that one!”

The old man looked at the girl inquisitively and thought about what she had done and said. Inspired, he joined the little girl in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved.
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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by at46 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 pm
at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm
Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.
The mentality is probably "If I'm going to be the only one to upgrade my stove, it's not going to change a thing, so why bother?". A government program is needed that'll certify every stove in the country, kinda like they certify every vehicle in revision technica.
Unfortunately you are probably right , but it's a screwed up mentality by ignorant people, maybe they should read the starfish story.
I know it's not an exclusive Chilean trait but it seems very ingrained here in a lot of people that do not have the capacity to think logically or have any concept of consequences , again I'm not talking about poor people., Because Its clear its definitely not an income or wealth thing, but I guess I possibly would have thought those that have had more education and been exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking may have had more of a friggin clue, some do, the majority don't.
I guess money doesn't buy common sense or stop you from being an ignorant human being, it is certainly proved here, time after time, for so many different things.
It's those same clowns that say their vote doesn't make a difference and they are lucky to have a 40 percent turnout for elections, then they moan about the government not doing enough for them.
A government program may make some minor difference, but you can't regulate against ignorance or just being a jerk .

Starfish story.


A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.

She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, “Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You can’t save all these starfish. You can’t begin to make a difference!”

The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied, “Well, I made a difference to that one!”

The old man looked at the girl inquisitively and thought about what she had done and said. Inspired, he joined the little girl in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved.
I hear what you're saying and I agree that we should all try our best, for our own sanity, if not for anybody else. But I also think that, pragmatically speaking, only a government program to either force or entice people to upgrade is going to make a difference quickly. The government can subsidize LNG to make it cheaper than wood, for example, and voila, problem solved.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by Gloria » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:08 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 pm
at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm
Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.
The mentality is probably "If I'm going to be the only one to upgrade my stove, it's not going to change a thing, so why bother?". A government program is needed that'll certify every stove in the country, kinda like they certify every vehicle in revision technica.
Unfortunately you are probably right , but it's a screwed up mentality by ignorant people, maybe they should read the starfish story.
I know it's not an exclusive Chilean trait but it seems very ingrained here in a lot of people that do not have the capacity to think logically or have any concept of consequences , again I'm not talking about poor people., Because Its clear its definitely not an income or wealth thing, but I guess I possibly would have thought those that have had more education and been exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking may have had more of a friggin clue, some do, the majority don't.
I guess money doesn't buy common sense or stop you from being an ignorant human being, it is certainly proved here, time after time, for so many different things.
It's those same clowns that say their vote doesn't make a difference and they are lucky to have a 40 percent turnout for elections, then they moan about the government not doing enough for them.
A government program may make some minor difference, but you can't regulate against ignorance or just being a jerk .

Starfish story.


A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.

She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, “Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You can’t save all these starfish. You can’t begin to make a difference!”

The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied, “Well, I made a difference to that one!”

The old man looked at the girl inquisitively and thought about what she had done and said. Inspired, he joined the little girl in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved.
Nice little story........does it means the ignorants should be thrown into the sea?......just kidding! Actually doesn't sound like a bad idea. :D
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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by 41southchile » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:35 pm

at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 pm
at46 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:19 pm
Space Cat wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:00 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 am
It's not only the poor who have shitty insulation and use green wood, because some of the most dirty belching chimneys are from houses that are clearly not short of pesos .
Most of the island is ABC1 families and even they can't switch to mildly polluting efficient pellet stoves.
The mentality is probably "If I'm going to be the only one to upgrade my stove, it's not going to change a thing, so why bother?". A government program is needed that'll certify every stove in the country, kinda like they certify every vehicle in revision technica.
Unfortunately you are probably right , but it's a screwed up mentality by ignorant people, maybe they should read the starfish story.
I know it's not an exclusive Chilean trait but it seems very ingrained here in a lot of people that do not have the capacity to think logically or have any concept of consequences , again I'm not talking about poor people., Because Its clear its definitely not an income or wealth thing, but I guess I possibly would have thought those that have had more education and been exposed to other ideas or ways of thinking may have had more of a friggin clue, some do, the majority don't.
I guess money doesn't buy common sense or stop you from being an ignorant human being, it is certainly proved here, time after time, for so many different things.
It's those same clowns that say their vote doesn't make a difference and they are lucky to have a 40 percent turnout for elections, then they moan about the government not doing enough for them.
A government program may make some minor difference, but you can't regulate against ignorance or just being a jerk .

Starfish story.


A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.

She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, “Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You can’t save all these starfish. You can’t begin to make a difference!”

The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied, “Well, I made a difference to that one!”

The old man looked at the girl inquisitively and thought about what she had done and said. Inspired, he joined the little girl in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved.
I hear what you're saying and I agree that we should all try our best, for our own sanity, if not for anybody else. But I also think that, pragmatically speaking, only a government program to either force or entice people to upgrade is going to make a difference quickly. The government can subsidize LNG to make it cheaper than wood, for example, and voila, problem solved.
I dont really hold much hope of government (any govt) solving many problems, I mean the good intentions from the state and relevant actors are there (sometimes) while other times it's just brute ideology and their way or the highway.

People will still try and screw the system over or cheat it, maybe because the government has an abysmal track record for so many things, it's generally always pico in the ojo for the citizens . It's the Chilean way, if you can get away with it you will, applies to govt and citizens.

Chile should in theory be able to subsidize electricity with the amount of renewables coming onstream, but what are the electricity companies doing ? Jacking up their prices .

Under the NM they secured decades long LNG contracts and bargain prices, seen any price drops?


Chile is a country of so many contradictions and their relationship with confused govt interference and supposed free markets is one example of that. Maybe that's why they are so confused they dont know what the end game is.

I really don't know about subsidies , maybe they could just start by being more efficient, promoting more competition, reducing red tape etc etc rather than just going through the motions pretending. First they need to stop companies rorting everyone else. Electricity, fuel, telecoms, etc etc.

I guess that's why people's mentalities are the way they are the country gets the govt they deserve or is it the other way around?
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:35 pm

. First they need to stop companies rorting everyone else. Electricity, fuel, telecoms, etc etc.
Why should "they", meaning the government care? The higher the retail prices are, the more tax they collect, and a lot of that money stays with them. And the politicians and big business are way too cozy with each other, not just Piraña's lot either. The eternal discussions about Igualdad are just a sop to pacify the plebs.
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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by 41southchile » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:19 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:57 pm
41southchile wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:35 pm

. First they need to stop companies rorting everyone else. Electricity, fuel, telecoms, etc etc.
Why should "they", meaning the government care? The higher the retail prices are, the more tax they collect, and a lot of that money stays with them. And the politicians and big business are way too cozy with each other, not just Piraña's lot either. The eternal discussions about Igualdad are just a sop to pacify the plebs.
Exactly, they don't care, that's what I mean, there's no point subsidising things it's the wrong approach.
People know what govts over last three decades have been like and the govts lip service to everything and everyone here, and so it's a vicious cycle .
Trust in govt and politicians is so low because of the way they act and behave, they (politcos) need to wake the hell up. It could be a dangerous path the country heads down and they will have no one to blame but themselves for what eventuates. I guess like the people with really smokey chimneys, the politicos too are too thick to realize the principle of causation or causality and will just blame the communists or some other boogy man.
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by Space Cat » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:03 am

AFAIK, there is some stove replacement subsidy at least in Valdivia. Haven't checked the stats this year but the graph of PM2.5 peaks in winter was sloooowly going down in the last few years which is good considering the population growth.

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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:24 pm

Burning any type of wood produces smoke, even the 50-year-old ex-construction dessicated Pine that I sometimes burn in our Hergom stove. I haven't seen an unbiased comparison showing how much "cleaner" those pellets are.
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Re: Coyhaique Most Polluted City in the Americas

Post by Space Cat » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:48 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:24 pm
Burning any type of wood produces smoke, even the 50-year-old ex-construction dessicated Pine that I sometimes burn in our Hergom stove. I haven't seen an unbiased comparison showing how much "cleaner" those pellets are.
I haven't found a reliable study either but you can see it with your eyes: our stove barely has visible smoke from the chimney when running. A chart from Connecticut's government site confirms my observations:

emissionsgraph.png
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