Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by admin » Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:44 am

From the independent website Venezuelan Analysis:
wholly shit??????? Really?

Venezuela Analysis, from everything I see on their site, is produced by a bunch of hard core far left wing socialist to outright communist supportering chavistas, who's primary objective seems to act as apologist for Maduro and Chavez's crimes against humanity and spin any negative news about Venezuela as either conspiracy or otherwise justified for the greater good of the global revolution.

Seriously. Go through their website. It is all pro-venzuela government, pro-marxist comunism, with perhaps just sufficient critical "analysis" to try and pretend to be a respectable news site. I really don't see any difference between their writing and some pro-nazi party propaganda denying the Holocaust.

This is what this is shaping up to be. A holocaust. By the time this is all over, and someday it will be over, and all the deaths are accounted for that can be accounted for, this lovely little experiment in socialism might very well have killed hundreds of thousands if not more since Chavez came in to power.
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by admin » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:51 pm

You know I started this thread and watching Venezuela, because I was interested in the effect Venezuela impact on the price of oil.

Then as I followed closer and closer what is going on there, I started realizing my little bet on the oil market was the least of the concerns there. I was looking at it as another interesting case of a latin american economy imploding due to crappy politics. Sort of like Argentina colapse 1-20, or Brazil, or Mexico, or <insert just about every latin american country in the last 100 years at some point>.

Now, I am looking at it from a humanitarian / historical perspective. The economics / politics is almost more of an interesting foot note for me. I have even pondered how I could help, although I don't generally get involved unless I am convinced I am actually doing something worthwhile and effective. Perhaps something will strike me as worth while at some point.

But the point is, the situation has dramatically morphed from simple bad politics and economics to humanitarian crisis in search of label.

Here is what I mean.

This is a great article on the impact that the collapse of Venezuela is having on the Colombian medical system near the boarder:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 92819.html

I am starting to become concerned about the rapid implosion destabilizing the neighbors. That boarder with Colombia is only now starting to sort out its own problems. That is however another topic, for another post; but, that is a very unstable neighborhood to suddenly have a refugee crisis in.

From that article, what caught my attention was this bit, among many other shockers:
The cases that come through Colombia provide alarming insight into the state of Venezuela’s hospitals, said Bitar, the public health director.

A few months ago, a young boy was flown from Venezuela’s capital to Cúcuta for dialysis. The fact that this small Colombian town of 600,000 could provide medical care not even available in Caracas, which has more than 2 million inhabitants, was both startling and revealing, Bitar said.

“They brought him by plane to San Cristóbal and then he crossed the border in an ambulance, just for dialysis,” he said. “That’s completely pathetic.”
and this one,
In some ways, new definitions are needed to deal with this crisis, he said. Even as Venezuela has one of the highest murder rates in the world, there’s no recognized conflict taking place there.

But the Venezuelans coming to Cúcuta “are de-facto refugees, whether or not they’re recognized by international law,” Calderón said. “They’re fleeing to save their lives.”
Which is a really interesting point. How do you classify this government created crisis. International aid agencies, the U.N., the red cross, and so on are really not triggered unless you have some sort of actual conflict or disaster to intervene in to with a clear definition of what it is they are fixing.

I had the thought. Some group in Venezuela needs to form an armed rebellion. Not to overthrow the government, but simply to trigger international laws that would then allow for aid to flow to the neighboring countries and perhaps trigger international war crimes / crimes against humanity sorts of investigations. Essentially, just trigger what limited amount of international protections there are, for what they are worth.

Because I was thinking about it. He is right. There really is no crime recognized in international law for a government to actively blocking people from being able to take care of themselves.

In fact, I am not even certain how to describe it. It is beyond simple negligence. It is not really like the case of Somalia, that had an outright failed state. We have a similar situation that has been going on for decades in North Korea. A government intentionally starving and denying basic resources to a large segment of people. It might be pointed out, that perhaps there is a crime somewhere defined under international law because it is focused on a particular political group, but it seems in Venezuela's case to have spread to all groups (with the exception of the best friends to the regime).

However, it is not really like when sadam hussian used mustard gas on the kurds, but at the end of the day is more effective in killing people then mustard gas.

Then we have the rising cases of women being forced to choose sterilization in Venezuela, for lack of medical resources and access to contraception. It is obviously wrong, but how do you define that as a crime?

http://www.inquisitr.com/3823732/women- ... -hardship/

How do you define the crime? How do you define the crisis, when it is so widely spread?

I would say it has more in common with what North Korea is doing to its people, than say what the Syrians are doing to the population that is rebelling.
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by Space Cat » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:22 am

admin wrote:Which is a really interesting point. How do you classify this government created crisis. International aid agencies, the U.N., the red cross, and so on are really not triggered unless you have some sort of actual conflict or disaster to intervene in to with a clear definition of what it is they are fixing.
AFAIK Russia was getting humanitarian aid at least from the US in the beginning of 90s. Not sure about UN or other organizations.

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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by frozen-north » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:17 am

admin wrote:
Some group in Venezuela needs to form an armed rebellion. Not to overthrow the government, ...
This was how Chavez first got involved in politics. The failed junior officers attempted coup of 1992. At the time there was wide discontent with the corruption of the government of Carlos Andrés Pérez ('acusado de malversación de fondos públicos y fraude a la nación').
... a government to actively blocking people from being able to take care of themselves.
How is it actively blocking people?

Then we have the rising cases of women being forced to choose sterilization in Venezuela, for lack of medical resources and access to contraception. It is obviously wrong, but how do you define that as a crime?
Is the same situation OK when it is attributed to market forces'?

When people do not have access to medications or schools for their children because they can not afford it, Is it just a free market issue?

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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:25 am

frozen-north wrote: How is it actively blocking people?
Is this a joke? You write a one-sentence question (six words) that would require volumes to answer.
Lets turn it round.....
You show us how, under this Venezuelan government, freedom and welfare have improved. That is what you seem to be implying. Some statistical examples would be nice.
frozen-north wrote:Is the same situation OK when it is attributed to market forces'?
When people do not have access to medications or schools for their children because they can not afford it, Is it just a free market issue?
This is known as diversionary rhetoric. You introduce this "free market" red herring which has absolutely no relevance to the corrupt socialoid kleptocracy in question.

Rather than sniping away piecemeal, why can't you produce a decent comment for a change instead of expecting other people to do all the work answering your six-word questions.
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by frozen-north » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:44 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
=frozen-north"]
How is it actively blocking people?
Is this a joke? You write a one-sentence question (six words) that would require volumes to answer.
Can't you read?

This was in relation to a comment by admin:
... a government to actively blocking people from being able to take care of themselves.
He has been writing news and his opinions, but, as far as I recall, I have not seen anything that indicates that the government is 'actively blocking people'.

If you don't know the answer, and don't feel like adding a thoughtful comment or question, go back to your eggnog and stay there.

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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:04 pm

frozen-north wrote:He has been writing news and his opinions, but, as far as I recall, I have not seen anything that indicates that the government is 'actively blocking people'.
Every news item coming out of Venezuela for the last few years would seem to say otherwise. Or do you think its all yanqui propaganda?
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by seawolf180 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:18 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
frozen-north wrote:He has been writing news and his opinions, but, as far as I recall, I have not seen anything that indicates that the government is 'actively blocking people'.
Every news item coming out of Venezuela for the last few years would seem to say otherwise. Or do you think its all yanqui propaganda?
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by admin » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:34 pm

?????????
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by FrankPintor » Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:48 pm

The usual thread defacement from someone with an axe to grind and nothing to contribute to the thread topic. There will probably be more trolls along shortly.

You wrote something pretty interesting a few posts back and finished with: "How do you define the crime? How do you define the crisis, when it is so widely spread?" Well, don't you think either crimes against humanity, or genocide would fit. If the Venezuelan opposition were any good, they would be catalogueing all of this, this is the unglamorous lawyer-type work of recording all the crimes, identifying the victims and the perpetrators, waiting for the day when justice will some and they can present the evidence. There's got to be a process like this in Venezuela over the next few years, I don't see how the current government can survive another election.

However, my feeling is that the opposition is simply not up to the task, or (at least part of it) is waiting to take it's turn to suck at the oil-teat. Maybe they need help from outside but they really are thoroughly amateurish.
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:54 pm

admin wrote: There really is no crime recognized in international law for a government to actively blocking people from being able to take care of themselves.
A large part of Venezuelas problems have been caused by the malign influence of Fidel Castro. Both Chavez and Maduro were Castro disciples, and have successfully applied his repressive methods in Venezuela.
As with Castro in Cuba, Chavez pragmatically identified the totalitarian form of control utilized by Communism as the surest way to maintain himself in power, with the same disastrous consequences.

From Cuba: The Castro Dream Spectator Archive from 30th August 1962:
Though this tacit admission of economic failure and prospect of low living standards for another generation does not constitute an immediate threat to the regime's political stability --forty-four years' experience of Communism has shown that- economic discontent in itself seems unable to overthrow a Communist dictatorship—it does entail many serious political consequences.
In that article, the economic failure is Cuba's. The "low living standards" persist to this day, 55 years later. The "communist dictatorship" is Russia. The article content is depressingly familiar. History does repeat itself.
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Re: Venezuela Wake, countdown to implosion

Post by FrankPintor » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:13 am

fraggle092 wrote:
admin wrote: There really is no crime recognized in international law for a government to actively blocking people from being able to take care of themselves.
A large part of Venezuelas problems have been caused by the malign influence of Fidel Castro. Both Chavez and Maduro were Castro disciples, and have successfully applied his repressive methods in Venezuela.
As with Castro in Cuba, Chavez pragmatically identified the totalitarian form of control utilized by Communism as the surest way to maintain himself in power, with the same disastrous consequences.

From Cuba: The Castro Dream Spectator Archive from 30th August 1962:
Though this tacit admission of economic failure and prospect of low living standards for another generation does not constitute an immediate threat to the regime's political stability --forty-four years' experience of Communism has shown that- economic discontent in itself seems unable to overthrow a Communist dictatorship—it does entail many serious political consequences.
In that article, the economic failure is Cuba's. The "low living standards" persist to this day, 55 years later. The "communist dictatorship" is Russia. The article content is depressingly familiar. History does repeat itself.
Oh Gawd, is there any way to make this relevant to even this Millenium
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