The State of the States

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RWS
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Post by RWS » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:07 am

Gloria wrote:"that Saddam Hussein possessed or was on the verge of possessing WMDs, including nuclear weaponry."

Sorry to dissapoint you but it was never proven!.The CIA director lied. . . .
Because Carlos has already replied quite thoroughly, I scarcely need to write anything; but I will, in part because Gloria's apparent misunderstanding of what I wrote does point up a concern of mine.

First, to what I wrote: I wrote that certain folk had reached a certain conclusion. At no point did I state that the conclusion was accurate, and I deliberately did not. People constantly come to mistaken conclusions, often through processes which to them seem rational and accurate: "there is no God"; "Americans are fools"; "the stock market will rise to fourteen thousand on the Dow"; "it will rain before nightfall". That the conclusion is mistaken or that additional or properly conclusory evidence is never produced does not indicate that the mistaken concluder was either a fool or a scoundrel: simply that he was mistaken.

Do I believe that the conclusion was reached in good faith? Yes.

Do I think that other considerations influenced -- at least subconsciously -- the reaching of the conclusion? Of course! What human being consistently divorces emotion and desire from his reasoning? None.

(You may ask whether I regret that the Iraqi War was begun, and I likely would answer you. But my personal beliefs have -- or should have -- no effect upon how I, if I am honest, try to report history.)

My other consideration? I think I'll let that go.

RWS
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Re: Reason US went to War?

Post by RWS » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:12 am

mlightheart wrote:RWS, I came across an interesting article in the SF Journal that touches on the subject of Intelligence gathering about WMDs.

It is titled:

What Happened to Iraq's WMD
How politics corrupts intelligence

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... F5U1L1.DTL

Here is a small snippet of the piece:

The intelligence services of everyone else were not proclaiming Iraq to be in possession of WMD. Rather, the intelligence services of France, Russia, Germany, Great Britain and Israel were noting that Iraq had failed to properly account for the totality of its past proscribed weapons programs, and in doing so left open the possibility that Iraq might retain an undetermined amount of WMD. . . .
Thanks, mlight; I'll try to read it over the weekend.

Quickly, I'll note (from a former career as an historian, a stint of service in the White House -- no, not in the oval office! -- and a current career in law) that no intelligence service has ever existed that is infallible; that their fallibility increases as populations grow and societies become more complex; that, regrettably, the CIA and others of the "twelve apostles" (the American intelligence agencies, now more numerous but probably no more capable) might never have been the world's best; and, after their teeth were drawn in the late 1970s, the American intelligence agencies became even less effective in either intelligence gathering or otherwise operating.

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Post by RWS » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:16 am

Gloria wrote:Carlos, it's not that chileans themselves as individuals cannot be understood, is Chile as a whole, as a society. . . .
I do hope, Gloria, that you really don't believe this. As Carlos has indicated, basic human nature is the same the world over and throughout time. Cultural overlays are not impenetrable. It would be a rather obtuse observer who could not grasp the essence of a culture (or of another subculture, in this case, as both Chile and the United States are Western countries) after careful study, especially through immersion.

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Re: Reasons US went to war?

Post by RWS » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:25 am

Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:Carlos, if you believe the crapola you just wrote, I'm sorry. But the US knew, at least the powers that lead us into destruction knew, that there were no weapons of mass destruction. Yes, the rest of us believed it ( or most of us did) but the people who knew better, well, it's a wag the dog kinda situation. You are really off mark on the democratic thing, and any reference to humanitarian intervention is bull...i.e. Somalia, Darfur. The US powers that be are consistently duping the American Middle Class (and most other classes) with fear, mis-information and are aided by the mainstream US media.

Sorry, I disagree with you vehemently!

Vicki
Again, Carlos has written a reasoned -- and temperate -- rebuttal. I'll but add that the vulgarity of this post surprised me, and that poor administration (I do not write "leadership" as I do not believe that a free man should be "ruled" by other than his own conscience) does not presuppose deceit.

In sum: probably no one posting here approves of the Iraqi War; that does not mean that we all think the current American president necessarily a liar or a con man. To take a parallel: I would not have approved of the Vietnamese War; that does not necessarily mean that I think the then presidents Kennedy and Johnson must have been liars or con men (yes, I know that the historical record shows that each was both; but I write concerning their having involved the nation in the Vietnamese War). People are fallible; one doesn't somehow become infallible through having been elected president or pope!

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Post by tombrad2 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:37 am

However I agree with Gloria in some way, It is very easy to misunderstood or predict mistakenly behavour of people once you think you "grasped the essence", It is very similar to psycologyst mistakes when they label things extremely complex as the personality in simplified models.

The problem of social sciences is always the oversimplification, the labeling into wrong models. Many big, big errors has been commited in sake of oversimplification (I remember Keyserlings "Meditaciones Sudamericanas").

"Basic human nature is the same the world over and throughout time", true, but the keyword here is "basic"
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The parallels between the Bush and Nixon Administartions?

Post by mlightheart » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:19 pm

I was curious if any one had thought if there were any parallels between the Nixon and Bush Administrations. I found this interesting article:

Watergate and the Iraq War - A higher standard of truthfulness?

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3547

I think it might be related in some way to the article about Intelligence gathering and politics.

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Post by admin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:32 pm

I was going to add a link to one of my favorite sites on the subject,
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/

which is the home to the 911 the complete time line research project. Seems their server is down. Let me know if anyone can reach them.
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jobs

Post by admin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:35 pm

say, back to the economy. I see that the 17000 jobs where eliminated last month from the US economy, confirming my observations that companies are heavily cutting back on staff.
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Post by Gloria » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:44 pm

From RWS "I'll but add that the vulgarity of this post surprised me,"
GIVEEEEE MEEEEE A BREAKKKKK!!!!
I'm from the generation of common sense, wisdom and unfiltered answers. I sayeth as I seeth.

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Re: Reasons US went to war?

Post by Vicki and Greg Lansen » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:45 pm

RWS wrote:
Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:Carlos, if you believe the crapola you just wrote, I'm sorry. But the US knew, at least the powers that lead us into destruction knew, that there were no weapons of mass destruction. Yes, the rest of us believed it ( or most of us did) but the people who knew better, well, it's a wag the dog kinda situation. You are really off mark on the democratic thing, and any reference to humanitarian intervention is bull...i.e. Somalia, Darfur. The US powers that be are consistently duping the American Middle Class (and most other classes) with fear, mis-information and are aided by the mainstream US media.

Sorry, I disagree with you vehemently!

Vicki
Again, Carlos has written a reasoned -- and temperate -- rebuttal. I'll but add that the vulgarity of this post surprised me, and that poor administration (I do not write "leadership" as I do not believe that a free man should be "ruled" by other than his own conscience) does not presuppose deceit.

In sum: probably no one posting here approves of the Iraqi War; that does not mean that we all think the current American president necessarily a liar or a con man. To take a parallel: I would not have approved of the Vietnamese War; that does not necessarily mean that I think the then presidents Kennedy and Johnson must have been liars or con men (yes, I know that the historical record shows that each was both; but I write concerning their having involved the nation in the Vietnamese War). People are fallible; one doesn't somehow become infallible through having been elected president or pope!
If I have offended anyone by being "vulgar" let me apologize for that. I could have tempered my words, or simply chosen more appropriate ones. However, my feelings are very strong...i.e. we were duped, and we continue to be duped. I had just re-watched the State of the Union address, and I was astounded at what was missing. Osama Bin Laden. Not Sadaam, not the Taliban, not Insurgents, but Osama Bin Laden.

So, again, I apologize if I let my anger spill over into my post and offended anyone.

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Post by Vicki and Greg Lansen » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:47 pm

And, you are right about a poor administration not necessarily equating deceit. However, you can have both, as evidence by the past eight years.

Vicki

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Re: Reasons US went to war?

Post by Gloria » Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:54 pm

Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:
RWS wrote:
Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:Carlos, if you believe the crapola you just wrote, I'm sorry. But the US knew, at least the powers that lead us into destruction knew, that there were no weapons of mass destruction. Yes, the rest of us believed it ( or most of us did) but the people who knew better, well, it's a wag the dog kinda situation. You are really off mark on the democratic thing, and any reference to humanitarian intervention is bull...i.e. Somalia, Darfur. The US powers that be are consistently duping the American Middle Class (and most other classes) with fear, mis-information and are aided by the mainstream US media.

Sorry, I disagree with you vehemently!

Vicki
Again, Carlos has written a reasoned -- and temperate -- rebuttal. I'll but add that the vulgarity of this post surprised me, and that poor administration (I do not write "leadership" as I do not believe that a free man should be "ruled" by other than his own conscience) does not presuppose deceit.

In sum: probably no one posting here approves of the Iraqi War; that does not mean that we all think the current American president necessarily a liar or a con man. To take a parallel: I would not have approved of the Vietnamese War; that does not necessarily mean that I think the then presidents Kennedy and Johnson must have been liars or con men (yes, I know that the historical record shows that each was both; but I write concerning their having involved the nation in the Vietnamese War). People are fallible; one doesn't somehow become infallible through having been elected president or pope!
If I have offended anyone by being "vulgar" let me apologize for that. I could have tempered my words, or simply chosen more appropriate ones. However, my feelings are very strong...i.e. we were duped, and we continue to be duped. I had just re-watched the State of the Union address, and I was astounded at what was missing. Osama Bin Laden. Not Sadaam, not the Taliban, not Insurgents, but Osama Bin Laden.

So, again, I apologize if I let my anger spill over into my post and offended anyone.
Vicky, that's called "let your passion come to the surface" Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Definition of crapola: rubbish, nonsense.
I'm from the generation of common sense, wisdom and unfiltered answers. I sayeth as I seeth.

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