Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tiff

Anything at all (keep it clean) goes here that does not fit in to any of the other forums.

Moderator: eeuunikkeiexpat

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by frozen-north » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:02 am

xilantro wrote:

Well, I think I disagree with pretty much everything there, so here is an honest set of points about why. I'm sorry that it seems a little ballistic, but where murder is justified and inequality swept under the carpet, it sets me off a bit. Call me dysfunctional..

"some of the things he done are understandably popular" - to a group of people so primitive they can't comprehend human rights, and would ignore the cost in lives and human rights to others, possibly.

"preventing a communist war" - you mean preventing people from resisting Nixon's "make their economy scream" interference however they can? What if that Dick had not destroyed the economy?

"less wealthy countries" - don't kid yourself - Chile is poor and miserable, except for a tiny percentage. The wealth is not national and not shared. it is privately held.

"achieving the goal is much more important then the method used to get there" - right - decency does not fit as concept in those brains.

As for communist countries, keep in mind that the words Communism and Socialism are interchangeable in Marxist theory - only uneducated buffoons like Joe McCarthy drew a distinction to be able to go murder people in Guatemala to protect his funders. Scandinavia is a pretty good example of Communist ideals implemented well - classless if not stateless, and they seem a model in so many ways. All the countries that have made a big deal of trumpeting communism as ideal have basically been run by corrupt megalomaniacs - that is not a shortcoming of communism - it is personal political corruption made strong by bad education.
Thank you, xilantro.

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by frozen-north » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:05 am

El Lechero wrote:
yeah not quite its not that he made them rich.
Some reading for you:

Privatization Profiteers from Pinochet’s Chile May Yet Face Prison

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15871

http://www.globalresearch.ca/privatizat ... on/5350695


María Olivia Monckeberg desgrana “el Choclo” y explica cómo ha operado el largo brazo de Penta

http://www.theclinic.cl/2014/08/28/mari ... -de-penta/


Maria Olivia Monckeberg - El Saqueo de Los Grupos Economicos Al Estado Chileno

https://es.scribd.com/doc/40861173/Mari ... do-Chileno

User avatar
xilantro
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:47 am
Location: Santiago
Contact:

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by xilantro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:50 am

Thank you, frozen-north. Having lived here in the '60s, it's distressing to see what seems lost forever replaced by abuse and denial as values.

El Lechero
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:52 am
Contact:

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by El Lechero » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:54 am

Yeah to be honest i prob wont read it. Yes people profited from pinochet thats known. Yes i have read a fair bit about those years the involvement of cia etc etc But to be honest im not really that interested however what i do appreciate and respect is people from ALL walks of life recalling their experiences during those years, but thats just me.
who knows as i say i wasnt there and just find it all too confussing sometimes. Thats all

User avatar
xilantro
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:47 am
Location: Santiago
Contact:

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by xilantro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:00 am

It's very satisfying to see the rampant looting by these "free-market privatizers" so well documented in El Saqueo... Should be required reading before voting or... Great set of links. Just in case there are others not so wedded to the "reading is ignorance" doublethink, I put the document here: "The Looting of the Chilean Government by Economic Groups" (Spanish) by Maria Olivia Monckenberg, so you can get it without having to do another upload to Scribd...

Says it was uploaded in 2010. Is that when it was written, frozen-north?

User avatar
Dosedmonkey
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:27 am

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:17 am

xilantro wrote: "achieving the goal is much more important then the method used to get there" - right - decency does not fit as concept in those brains.
.
I think you need read my post again, I didn't say he was aacceptable, I said it was horrible and disgusting. However look at the poll and you might see my opinion of the culture here aligns with the poll results.

Scandanavia is not Communist haha. Just full of hard working people. It appears to be socialist but really it is just full of people with good ethics and hard working capatilist ideals, wanting to compete for good work and being paid relative to their work. Just getting higher tax. Each Scandinavian country varies quite a bit too, not good to generalise.

As for reading wiki and forming an opinion, that's a good assumption. Strange how the population is split but when a gringo points out Facts for both sides, you presume he reads rubbish, I know a guy who was a student at the time, communist supporter, who is since lawyer, who escaped torture by luckily having a girlfriend of an imimportant family with influence, she got him freed from prison pretty quick. I'd never wish torture on anyone. And you don't need to be Chilan to know how spine chilling it is.

But the rest of his actions not involving death and torture are not clean cut and not every Chilean 40 years ago was effected by that, or aware of it going on, so how being a gringo is a disadvantage compared to someone unaware of the torture taking place I'm mythed.

User avatar
xilantro
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:47 am
Location: Santiago
Contact:

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by xilantro » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:27 am

Oh - I didn't understand you to find the dictator acceptable, Dosedmonkey. Sorry for the confusion. Even if you did, I would find that abhorrent but well within your rights. (You just might find defending that position a little uncomfortable, is all, and be surprised that I don't need to kill you to disagree ;) I was trying to point out that "the end justifies the means" is the opposite of principle - that it is basically a primitive, uncivilized attitude. This is made worse by the fact that the end-goal in this case is deeply falsified as well, but that's another story.

As for Scandinavia being socialist, yes it is. Socialism and hard-work are not mutually exclusive. There is a modern trend to merge the terms socialism and communism, though admittedly communism has been used to refer to a state created through revolution while socialism to the same state as created by evolution.

User avatar
Dosedmonkey
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:27 am

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by Dosedmonkey » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:36 am

I 100% do not agree with the end makes the means acceptable. But a lot of people in Chile do. Robberies and petty theft high, people trying to make dodgy contracts and over charge you, guys trying to smash your car off the road to save 10 seconds off their journey time. All happens here in Chile.

I was trying to say, the reason it started and thibags it might have stopped are very important but I am rregrettable about the methods he used, but can't you see why the polls the way they are in Chilean culture?

frozen-north
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:28 am

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by frozen-north » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:38 pm

xilantro wrote:
It's very satisfying to see the rampant looting by these "free-market privatizers" so well documented in El Saqueo... Should be required reading before voting or... Great set of links. Just in case there are others not so wedded to the "reading is ignorance" doublethink, I put the document here: "The Looting of the Chilean Government by Economic Groups" (Spanish) by Maria Olivia Monckenberg, so you can get it without having to do another upload to Scribd...
https://www.powerslacker.com/assets/Mar ... hileno.pdf

Says it was uploaded in 2010. Is that when it was written, frozen-north?
Apparently it was published in 2001:
'el libro del Saqueo de los Grupos Económicos al Estado chileno, publicado en 2001................'
There seems to be another, more recent book, that might be interesting:
'Neoliberalism's Fractured Showcase: Another Chile is Possible'
by Ximena de la Barra (2011)

http://www.perseusacademic.com/book.php ... 1608462063

This collection of works by prominent Chilean experts explores the long term effects of neoliberalism.


And on the topic of "free-market privatizers":

Gonzalo Townsend Pinochet, que también es sobrino de la ex ministra de Justicia, afirma que el candidato de la derecha Sebastián Piñera "fue 28 días reo en fuga y que después la Corte Suprema lo absolvió".

'el candidato presidencial de la derecha Sebastián Piñera fue sometido a proceso y tuvo una orden de captura en su contra por infracción a la Ley General de Bancos, en la quiebra del Banco de Talca en 1982.'

http://www.archivochile.com/Chile_actua ... oc0011.pdf


En medio de la crisis bancaria de inicios de 1980, el ahora candidato presidencial de la Alianza fue declarado reo por fraude e infracciones a la Ley General de Bancos. Se mantuvo prófugo de la justicia por 24 días y sólo un recurso de amparo lo salvó de ir a la cárcel.

http://www.lanacion.cl/inversionista-en ... 05903.html

El Lechero
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:52 am
Contact:

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by El Lechero » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:13 pm

Look i may have woken on the wrong side of the bed this morning and sometimes i get carried away and think opinions are like ass holes and everyone elses stinks. Sorry I just need a release sometimes and wasnt suggesting gringos cant form an opion just suggesting that i find it ammussing that sometimes people will spout off without recognising there was some pretty unacceptable stuff going on pre 73 and it wasnt all some nirvana taken down by the military and yes the cia had a hand in stopping it and i wasnt aimming anything at anyone here. I was just talking in general from some blogs and media outlets i have seen read over the years.

User avatar
eeuunikkeiexpat
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 7979
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:38 am
Location: Megalith of unknown origin near my digs, south V Region coast

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:25 pm

For the newer members, there used to be extensive posts written by someone who was here during that time. Unfortunately, El Puelche requested all be deleted but fragments can be found in posts where his posts were quoted. Fascinating reading for the foreigners who have just read developed world critiques of that era.
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Interesting, online poll over Pino minute of silence tif

Post by john » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:37 pm

The good news is that all the statues of Milton Friedman and Henry Kissinger have been removed from public spaces. :)
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

Post Reply