Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

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greg~judy
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Re: Ukraine shot down Airliner

Post by greg~judy » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:31 pm

gyroid wrote: Su-25 can't fly above 5000-7000m (it depends on modifications). MH17 was at 10000m.
GringoVikingo wrote:SU 25 upgraded to SU 25 M1 can go up to 32 800 feet, something Ukraina did in 2011/2012.

In a German webb site "Anderwelt online". A german pilot have his own teory. Picture showing he may be right, the MH 17 cockpit is full of bullet hole.

http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Airc ... _25M1.html


Image

Image

PERFORMANCE

Maximum speed, km/h - Μ=0,82
Max speed in low height, km/h - 975
Combat range, km - 1.850
Service ceiling, m - 5.000-10.000
Maximum overload, g - 6.5

ARMAMENT

30-mm two-barrel cannon GSh-30-2 with 250 rounds.
or
SPPU-22 pods with 23-mm cannon GSh-23L with 260 rounds

Image

Image

Image
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

john
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by john » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:42 pm

What are we to make of this? :|

Many Ukraine soldiers cross into Russia amid shelling

More than 300 Ukrainian troops have crossed into Russia during heavy fighting with pro-Russian separatists.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637569

Flight 17 Shoot-down Scenario Shifts

"…, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings …."

http://www.readersupportednews.org/opin ... rio-shifts
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greg~judy
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Re: Ukraine shot down Airliner

Post by greg~judy » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:48 pm

~
thankfully, the 'spin-time' has just about spun out...
now, it seems to be coming around <finally> to 'truth-time'...
:idea:
Evidence Is Now Conclusive:
Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17.


August 05, 2014 "ICH" - We’ll go considerably farther than has yet been revealed by the professional intelligence community, to provide the actual evidence that conclusively shows that (and how) the Ukrainian Government shot down the Malaysian airliner, MH-17, on July 17th.

The latest report from the intelligence community was headlined on August 3rd by Robert Parry, “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts,” and he revealed there that,

“Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings. This judgment — at odds with what President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have expressed publicly — is based largely on the absence of U.S. government evidence that Russia supplied the rebels with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.”

It’s actually based on lots more than that; it’s based not on an absence of evidence, but on positive proof that the Ukrainian Government shot the plane down, and even proving how it was done. You will see this proof, right here, laid out in detail, for the first time.

<snip>
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e39341.htm
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

jehturner
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by jehturner » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:52 pm

What could be more conclusive than a Web page with extra large text and some photos of another aircraft?

What's for sure is that whatever idiot gave the weaponry to shoot down an airliner at 30k feet to some thugs that don't know how to use them has some answering to do...

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Re: Ukraine shot down MH17...

Post by greg~judy » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:03 pm

~
and are we at all surprised by this "report"...? <not>
but ok, we shall patiently await the REAL MH17 report <if ever>...
pssst - just like we still patiently await for the REAL 9/11 report <if ever>...
:idea:
Camouflage and Coverup:
The Dutch Commission Report on the Malaysian MH17 Crash is “Not Worth the Paper it’s Written On”

“Weasel wording” consists in using “words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that a specific and/or meaningful statement has been made, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated, enabling the specific meaning to be denied if the statement is challenged.” … “Some weasel words may also have the effect of softening the force of a potentially loaded or otherwise controversial statement through some form of understatement.” (Gary Jason 1988)

One thing must be stated outright: This report does not lie.

It just can’t lie since there is nothing new in it. I myself have never seen such a meaningless plane crash report. What comes as a surprise, however, is the report’s diplomatic, sophisticated choice of words, which loses itself in ambiguous terminology.

It was probably planned this way, so each party can continue to defend their version of what happened with zeal.

Let’s take a closer look at this report.

At the beginning we find, as usual, detailed statements about the plane, who it belonged to, that it was in perfect condition and details about the crew.

Technical issues or weather conditions are excluded as causes for the crash.

Then, it confirms that the flight recorders were virtually undamaged and that they have not been tampered with.

The report continues with the description of the debris scattered over a vast area and from this observation is drawn the amazing conclusion that this aircraft had blown up in the air.

I apologize for the slight sarcasm, but I will have no choice but to continue to make some sarcastic remarks about this “report”.

14 minutes of silence in the cockpit is absolutely impossible

It is reported that the cockpit section was probably completely broken off from the aircraft because it fell almost vertically from the point of shelling to the ground and was found at some distance from the rest of the debris.

The report indicates that the damages done by external forces were recorded almost exclusively in the front of the plane, namely the cockpit, and this led to the breakup of the aircraft.

So far so good, nothing new. Then there is a transcript of the radio communication between MH017 and air traffic control taken from the voice recorder.

At this point the expert starts to ask himself questions.

The transcript of the radio communication starts at 13:08:00 and ends at 13:22:02, a 14 minute time frame.

From my experience as an aircraft captain I cannot imagine that during 14 minutes no other dialogues or sounds were picked up in the cockpit by the voice recorder.

When the cockpit receives radio transmissions from other aircraft, those are also recorded by the device. As I said, there are no lies, but in all likelihood, not everything is being said. The published conclusion points out that:

“Crew communication gave no indication that there was anything abnormal with the flight.”

Everything was normal, but the possible (and very probable) conversation in the cockpit is concealed, as well as radio transmissions from other aircrafts.

High Energy Objects – and other hazy formulations

The conclusion of this report is a prime example of a situation in which one knows something with certainty, but the facts are presented in such a way that nothing is revealed:

The damage observed in the forward section of the aircraft appears to indicate that the aircraft was penetrated by a large number of high-energy objects from outside the aircraft. It is likely that this damage resulted in a loss of structural integrity of the aircraft, leading to an in-flight break up.”

Aha! says the astonished reader. We knew that already. We must take a closer look at this conclusion. In fact, it is not a conclusion.

The report speaks of possibilities and probabilities: “appears to indicate”, “it is likely”. But this is the less enigmatic part.

The wordings “penetrated” and especially “high-energy objects” are interesting. It remains unclear how far these “objects” entered, or even if they went through the entire cockpit and came out on the other side of it, thus completely “penetrating” the cockpit. The background picture of the cockpit section shown in this report is of lower quality and in smaller scale than the one I provided myself and published in my analysis.

“Weasel Wording”

Again it must be noted: The report does not lie, but the Commission shows less information than it has at its disposal.

The term “high-energy objects” is totally “original”. What is this?

I myself know this term from astrophysics or quantum physics. Otherwise, I have not commonly seen it in the context of aviation or plane accidents. So how should this concept be understood? I asked English speakers about this. They spontaneously replied bullets, projectiles from a cannon or fast moving freight trains. They also noted that this term is unusual in “normal”, colloquial terms, except in astrophysics or quantum physics. This strange wording leaves everything open.

License to interpretations – The explanation appears different

Those who want to follow the Western description can conclude that a surface-to-air missile discharges “high-energy-objects”. This is precisely the interpretation that I observed in the German media today.

Our newspapers are reciting like a creed the American version of the cause of the disaster, issued immediately after the MH 017 crash, by claiming that the present report confirms that the Boeing 777 was shot down by a surface-to-air missile.

That is not exactly what the report states, but it allows this interpretation – and that’s probably the point of this very flexible choice of words. Everybody can interpret what they want to believe according to their own taste. Especially if they are not native English speakers who spontaneously think of bullets.

This “report” is not worth the paper it is written on.

This is not surprising, because the Kiev Maidan government had to give their OK to what could be published.

The report leaves open everything which could actually contribute to an explanation. The MH 017 could have been hit by a missile, whether surface-to-air or air-to-air. It could have been shot down by a fighter jet or, sarcastically, according to the astrophysics or quantum physics terms, by a large number of “high-energy objects” that rained down on the cockpit from the far reaches of the universe.
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

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gyroid
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by gyroid » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:41 am

Haha you're still obsessed with conspiration theories around the catastrophe.

Pro-russian separatists were shooting down many Ukrainian Army aircrafts.
They were bragging about it on their pages in social networks.
They bragged about downing "another Ukrainian bird" 30m before MH17 fall.
MH17 fall deep in separatists-controlled territory.
And Ukrainian army does not use any anti-aircraft weapons because... *drumroll* separatists do not have aircrafts!

You're so deep in confirmation bias if you can't see the simplicity of this case.

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Re: Ukraine shot down MH17...

Post by greg~judy » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:21 pm

~
well, we have seen the censored, somewhat dubious dutch report...
and we are all still waiting <with bated breath> to read gyroid's "full" report...
but in the meantime - perhaps the R.U.E. might offer a smidgen more credibility...?
:|
Malaysian Flight MH17 Crash Analysis, by The Russian Union of Engineers

This is an excellent detailed analysis of the MH17 tragedy by the Russian Union of Engineers which quite frankly illustrates how heavily censored the Dutch “report” is.

We will let you digest this report and come to your own conclusion, which in all likelihood will explain the infamous high velocity projectiles whitewash pumped out by the western “press”.

This review was undertaken by experts who not only know the subject matter but have objectively presented evidence that must be considered with the legitimacy that is inherent to it. Here is the overall description of the “Analytical Group” from the report:

A group of experts from the Russian Union of engineers was convened to analyze the situation, including reserve officers with experience in the use of anti-aircraft missile systems, as well as pilots having experience with aircraft weapons.This problem was also discussed at a meeting of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, where many variants were tested and discussed again. In the course of their analysis the experts used materials derived from public sources, found in the media. The situation was also analyzed using a computer simulation of the Su-25.


You can download the English version of the report here.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content ... 140818.pdf
:idea:
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

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gyroid
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Re: Ukraine shot down MH17...

Post by gyroid » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:01 am

GlobalResearch.ca? Heh, it's a project of Russia Today.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

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greg~judy
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Re: Ukraine shot down MH17...

Post by greg~judy » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:33 am

gyroid wrote:GlobalResearch.ca? Heh, it's a project of Russia Today.
~
please gyroid, all allchileans hope you can do MUCH better than that...
we'll assume that you never even bothered to read the report <to offer any cogent repartee>...
:?:

btw1 - shouldn't you really be addressing your ad hominem attack to the Russian Union of Engineers...
btw2 - your constant russo-phobia is getting a bit pedantic...
:|
... the classic ad hominem fallacy:

...to attack your opponent’s character <or sources>, rather than addressing the substance of his arguments.

...a standard tactic of those who have weak counterarguments, or who wish to avoid discussing the topic at all.
:idea:
Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise.
--- Surangama Sutra
“If we want everything to stay as it is, everything will have to change."
--- Giuseppe Tomasi di Lamedusa

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gyroid
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Re: Ukraine shot down MH17...

Post by gyroid » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:05 pm

greg~judy wrote:
gyroid wrote:GlobalResearch.ca? Heh, it's a project of Russia Today.
~
please gyroid, all allchileans hope you can do MUCH better than that...
we'll assume that you never even bothered to read the report <to offer any cogent repartee>...
:?:

btw1 - shouldn't you really be addressing your ad hominem attack to the Russian Union of Engineers...
btw2 - your constant russo-phobia is getting a bit pedantic...
:|
... the classic ad hominem fallacy:

...to attack your opponent’s character <or sources>, rather than addressing the substance of his arguments.

...a standard tactic of those who have weak counterarguments, or who wish to avoid discussing the topic at all.
:idea:
It's not russo-phobia: since I'm Russian myself, I know how the things are made in Russia. Union of Engineers was ordered to say what they said. Russian government lies A LOT during every conflict (read about Georgian war in 2008, about Chechen wars).

And because Russia is the part of the UA-RU conflict, all governmental talks are simply a self-defense. I need to waste hours of my life to counter statements from the report of this size. But the source speaks for itself. Then why should I pay any attention?

Would you read ISIS reports? :)

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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Ripsigg » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:06 am

gyroid wrote: And Ukrainian army does not use any anti-aircraft weapons because... *drumroll* separatists do not have aircrafts!
That is not true. They had them in the area and they used them.

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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Andres » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:06 pm

I can not comment on who has anti-aircraft weapons in that area . . . but let's not forget that anti-aircraft weapon barrels can easily be lowered to efficiently "handle" most ground vehicles and buildings.
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