Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

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HybridAmbassador
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Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by HybridAmbassador » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Now this unrest is going too far!

(Reuters) - A Malaysian airliner was shot down over eastern Ukraine by pro-Russian militants on Thursday, killing all 295 people aboard, a Ukrainian interior ministry official said.

Raising the stakes in the East-West showdown between Kiev and Moscow, the official blamed "terrorists" using a ground-to-air missile and Ukraine's prime minister called the downing of the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur a "catastrophe".

A Reuters correspondent saw burning wreckage and bodies on the ground at the village of Grabovo, about 40 km (25 miles) from the Russian border in an area where pro-Russian rebels have been active and have claimed to have shot down other aircraft.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 2N20140717
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by gyroid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:58 pm

It's not pro-Russian militants anymore, it's more like Russian army and GRU spetsnaz in disguise.

Militants don't have tanks and Buk missiles.

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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by HybridAmbassador » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:30 pm

SA 300 perhaps was used in the downing of the Malaysian airliner.

=======================================================================================================

S-300: What it can do, and cannot

The S-300 has impressive DNA – it is a development of the S-75 missile that famously shot down the U-2 spy plane over Russia in 1960, and embarrassed the Eisenhower administration.

Weaponised in the 1970s to replace the first generation SAMs, the S-300 is an easy to use, fire-and-forget road mobile system designed to repulse massive air strikes. With a range of 5-150 km, the system can track up to 12 targets and engage six of them separately. In terms of accuracy, the Russians claim a single shot kill probability of 80-93 percent against aircraft.

No existing aircraft can outrun the missile which travels at 7200 km/h and has a maximum altitude of 98,000 ft. Also, the latest versions of the S-300 can hit aircraft and missiles flying as low as 20 ft – from above.

Unlike the American Patriot, which was hyped as a Scud killer but was in fact a resounding dud, the Russian missile actually works. According to Boris Bunkin, the chief designer of the S-300, Desert Storm demonstrated it is not enough to hit a ballistic missile and cause it to lose trajectory; it is important to destroy its warhead. Bunkin solved this problem. His team conducted tests involving live Scud missiles, demonstrating the S-300 effectively destroys warheads at the point of interception.

Robert Hewson, editor of IHS Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, describes the S-300 system as formidable and respected by Western military planners: “If your plan is to waltz into Syrian airspace and start bombing things, this is a big wrinkle.”

The missile also has a narrow radar beam, which is not only difficult to detect but hard to jam. To be sure, the S-300 is not completely immune to electronic countermeasures, an area in which Israel excels. In 1982 Israeli aircraft destroyed 19 Syrian missile batteries after blinding them electronically.

Contrary to media reports, the S-300 is not a standalone “game changer”. It becomes deadly when used alongside anti-aircraft artillery (AAA) and fighter aircraft. By dominating high altitude air space, SAMs drive enemy aircraft down into a “flak trap” where AAA batteries and air defence fighters await them.

Countries that integrate this three-tier system – SAMs covering higher altitudes, AAA protecting the lower altitudes and air defence fighters patrolling the space in between – can significantly increase the costs for attacking air forces.

A look at a couple of conflicts in which these missiles helped user countries achieve near strategic parity with more powerful forces will help understand what the fuss is all about.

Vietnam: Unsafe at any height

The Vietnamese organised what was perhaps the most sophisticated and effective anti-aircraft defence in the history of warfare. “It was a multi-level, dynamically integrated defence that included radar warning systems, MiG jet fighters, SAMs, AAA of various calibers and small arms fire,” writes Vietnamese General Van Tien in the book American Failure.

As soon as US aircraft entered this aerial meat grinder, Vietnamese army radars vectored MiG fighters to intercept the attacking bombers and their fighter escorts. The information was also passed on to SAM command centres.

In order to counter the SAMs, US aircraft started using electronic countermeasure devices on their wingtips. This reduced the planes’ manoeuvrability and made them more vulnerable to MiG attacks.

“When a SAM was actually coming at them, pilots performed a tight turning dive to outmanoeuvre the missile, but this tactic had the undesirable effect of bringing them down again into the range of AAA,” writes Robert Dorr in Air War Hanoi.

Between 1964 and 1973 the Vietnamese AAA alone downed 740 US Air Force fighter aircraft. They also shot down hundreds of helicopters, several F-111 fighter bombers and 15 irreplaceable B-52 strategic bombers. The B-52s were lost despite the use of electronic jamming aircraft, defence suppression aircraft and fighter escorts. Interestingly, after the Vietnamese ran out of SAMs the USAF did not lose any more B-52s.

SAMs over Sinai

In the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, Russian crews operating SA-2 and SA-6 missiles employed the same tactics as the Vietnamese – by denying Israeli aircraft the use of high and medium altitude airspace, the SAMs forced enemy aircraft down into Arab AAA range. The Israelis admit they lost 303 aircraft. The actual number is probably higher.

Military analyst Sharad Joshi writes in the paper, Israel’s Nuclear Policy: A Cost-Benefit Analysis: “The same Israeli Air Force, which had practically demolished the entire Egyptian Air Force in the first few hours of the 1967 war, was neutralised for the early part of the 1973 war.”

Enter the S-300

If – or when – the S-300 arrives in Syria it will be a landmark moment. For the first time in the history of the Middle East, an Arab nation will have the ability to shoot down Israeli aircraft over Israel. An S-300 missile fired from Damascus will blow away an aircraft over central Tel Aviv in about 107 seconds, giving the Israelis virtually no reaction time.

To the Israeli Defence Forces, this is an unacceptable escalation. Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon warned: “The shipments haven’t set out yet and I hope they won’t. If they do arrive in Syria, god forbid, we’ll know what to do.”

Russia’s Deputy Foreign Minister, Sergey Ryabkov, shot back that the delivery of the missiles would be a stabilising factor that could dissuade “some hotheads” from entering the conflict.

The danger for Israel here is it could easily fall into the “flak trap”. In fact, it was the huge number of sorties conducted to suppress SAM systems that led to the high attrition rate of American and Israeli aircraft four decades ago.

Middle East manoeuvres

The Syrian military is not in the same league as the highly trained, motivated and brilliant Vietnamese. Syria’s anti-aircraft defences seem unable to stop the Israeli raids, and there is no guarantee they will use the S-300 effectively. There have been four strikes on Syrian military sites this year, and on each occasion the Israelis targeted weapons it feared were on their way to the Hezbollah.


Russia, therefore, has reason to be wary. If the Israelis take out the S-300 batteries, it would leave one of the world’s most feared weapons a little less feared. “The delay is all about the Russians understanding the Israeli situation and not wanting to trigger a response that would hurt Russia,” says Strategy Page.
Right now there are two options on the table. One, Russia can step up the training of Syrian missile crews before dispatching the latest – not stripped down export – versions of the missiles.

Another option is to supply the S-300 on the condition they will be operated by Russians, who would not only perform better in a conflict, but by their very presence deter an Israeli raid. A foolhardy Israeli attack on Russian-manned batteries will invite a massive backlash from Moscow, including increased support to the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah alliance. The trickle of Russian weapons will in all likelihood turn into a torrent.
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Sigma62Delta » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:53 pm

How did the Ukrainians know what kind of missile hit the plane???

Who stands to gain seeing with Russia being blamed for the attack. I can think of two countries right off hand.

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — A Ukrainian official said a passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down Thursday over a town in the east of the country, and Malaysia Airlines tweeted that it lost contact with one of its flights over Ukrainian airspace.
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Malaysians say have no information about any airliner crash Reuters

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet). He also said it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

The fate of the passengers wasn't immediately known.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said his country's armed forces didn't shoot at any airborne targets.

"We do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," he said. "We are sure that those who are guilty in this tragedy will be held responsible."

Malaysia Airlines said on its Twitter feed that it "has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace." The plane's destination was Kuala Lumpur.

It was the second time that a Malaysia Airlines plane was lost in less than six months. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared in March while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It has not been found, but the search has been concentrated in the Indian Ocean far west of Australia.

Malaysian Defense Minister Hishamuddin Hussein said on Twitter there's no confirmation that Thursday's plane was shot down. He said he has instructed the country's military to check and get confirmation.

The Donetsk region government said Thursday's plane crashed near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of armed pro-Russian separatists. The region where the flight was lost has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, which is held by pro-Russia rebels, earlier Thursday.

On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine. Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists or sowing unrest in its neighbor. The Russian Defense Ministry couldn't be reached for comment Thursday about the Ukrainian jet and Russia's foreign ministry didn't respond to multiple requests for comment.

Earlier this week, Ukraine said a military transport plane was shot down Monday by a missile fired from Russian territory.

The Malaysia Airlines plane is a Boeing 777-200ER, which was delivered to Malaysia Airlines on July 30, 1997, according to Flightglobal's Ascend Online Fleets, which sells and tracks information about aircraft. It has more than 43,000 hours of flight time and 6,950 takeoffs and landings.

If the plane was shot down, it would be the fourth commercial airliner to face such a fate. The previous three were:

— April 20, 1978: Korean Airlines Flight 902, which diverted from its planned course on a flight from Paris to Seoul and strayed over the Soviet Union. After being fired upon by an interceptor aircraft, the crew made a forced landing at night on the surface of a frozen lake. Two of the 97 passengers were killed by the hostile fire.

— Sept. 1, 1983: Korean Air Lines Flight 007 shot down by at least one Soviet air-to-air missile after the 747 had strayed into Soviet airspace. All 240 passengers and 29 crew were killed.

— July 3, 1988: Iran Air Flight 655 Aircraft was shot down by a surface to air missile from the American naval vessel U.S.S. Vincennes. All 16 crew and 274 passengers were killed.

___

AP Airlines Writer Scott Mayerowitz in New York contributed to this report.
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by gyroid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:14 pm

Sigma62Delta wrote:How did the Ukrainians know what kind of missile hit the plane???
Because they're watching their occupied territories close.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comme ... e_ukraine/ - tons of evidence. Terrorists bragged they have missiles, terrorists bragged they shoot down a plane, terrorists deleted all the posts from the internet after acknowledging it was a civil plane.

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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by nwdiver » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:39 pm

It appears it was over occupied territory, not the Ukraine and the Ukrainians don't have any missiles in that area, they took them when they left, also it appears it was an area recently closed to air traffic due to the fact this sort of shit may happen with those "want to be" Russians ;)

Well now Russia has problems, you can say what ever you want until your equipment is used by some idiots in this manner, it will be interesting to watch the dance Putin puts on for this one.............. my guess COMPLETE SILENCE...........

RE: how do they know what was used, all explosives have very recognizable makeups which is very easy to decode with a couple of swabs .......
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Sigma62Delta » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:50 pm

gyroid wrote:
Sigma62Delta wrote:How did the Ukrainians know what kind of missile hit the plane???
Because they're watching their occupied territories close.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comme ... e_ukraine/ - tons of evidence. Terrorists bragged they have missiles, terrorists bragged they shoot down a plane, terrorists deleted all the posts from the internet after acknowledging it was a civil plane.
According to the Ukrainians... Who are the only ones who actually stand to gain something from this. oops forgot a certain sanction frenzied nation would also benefit..
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Sigma62Delta » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:01 pm

nwdiver wrote:It appears it was over occupied territory, not the Ukraine and the Ukrainians don't have any missiles in that area, they took them when they left, also it appears it was an area recently closed to air traffic due to the fact this sort of shit may happen with those "want to be" Russians ;)

Well now Russia has problems, you can say what ever you want until your equipment is used by some idiots in this manner, it will be interesting to watch the dance Putin puts on for this one.............. my guess COMPLETE SILENCE...........

RE: how do they know what was used, all explosives have very recognizable makeups which is very easy to decode with a couple of swabs .......
That does make one wonder.. Who reopened the airspace? The plane came from Western Ukraine airspace. That means they were vectored through... I doubt Russia or the Separatists control the Western Ukraine air traffic controllers.

Why would Ukraine Vector a Commercial flight through an Area they stopped vectoring flights through when the separatists took over??? Unless...

All BUK missiles are made in Russia. Even the ones Ukraine has surrounding Kiev. Residue test will confirm if the explosives are indeed Russian, which I will for the sake of this being Eastern Europe say they are.
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Sigma62Delta » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:21 pm

There is an alternative theory to apply. That the Ukrainians intentionally vectored the Commercial flight into Separatist airspace knowing that the missile batterys fire upon military aircraft coming through there. Talk about a source of instant moral outrage.

I have to admit that would be a really really good plan. It would cover all the bases of "righteous" justification.

Sounds like Ukraine is getting some consultant help. Probably via the CIA. If that was the plan, much respect.
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by admin » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:59 pm

Perhaps already covered somewhere, but did you hear that russian tv is suppose to be reporting that it was an attempt to shootdown putin's plane on the way back from latin america?
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by Sigma62Delta » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:09 pm

And the plot thickens. Seems the planes were in the same vicinity in a 40 minute window at the time of the shootdown.
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Re: Ukraine pro Russia shot down Airliner

Post by gyroid » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:12 pm

Sigma62Delta wrote:There is an alternative theory to apply. That the Ukrainians intentionally vectored the Commercial flight into Separatist airspace knowing that the missile batterys fire upon military aircraft coming through there. Talk about a source of instant moral outrage.

I have to admit that would be a really really good plan. It would cover all the bases of "righteous" justification.

Sounds like Ukraine is getting some consultant help. Probably via the CIA. If that was the plan, much respect.
Sure, sure. Conspiracy theories EVERYWHERE. :o

Or not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
admin wrote:Perhaps already covered somewhere, but did you hear that russian tv is suppose to be reporting that it was an attempt to shootdown putin's plane on the way back from latin america?
Sure. They are speaking from a Wonderland for a half of a year.
First it was US-sponsored Euromaidan who overthrown their good friend Yanukovich.
Then neo-nazis rised in Ukraine and they killed many Russian-speaking citizens (half of Ukraine is Russian speaking, btw).
Then there were no Russian troops in Crimea and 999% of Crimeans voted to join Russia.
Then Eastern Ukraine decided to join Russia too, but evil Ukrainian nazis bombed all the Easterners.
And now there's a conspiracy to shoot down the president's plane (that happened to be above the war zone!).

Russian news aren't news anymore. It's blatant propaganda mostly for internal consumption. Many people believe it without questioning.

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