America on Fire

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frozen-north
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Re: America on Fire

Post by frozen-north » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:39 pm

nikotromus wrote:
I've never been chocked out or seen anyone get choked out by a "double knee on the body, no leverage, hand in the pocket" technique.

it's not possible to asphixiate someone with 2 knees on them with no leverage. Which, is why that was not marked as the cause of death.
Just a "double knee on the body"? You seem to have a viewpoint that does not seem to be shared by anybody else that I have read on the news. And this was not in a " Jui-Jitsu wrestling club".
'I can’t breathe’: Black suspect dies after Minneapolis cop filmed restraining him with knee against his neck for five minutes

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ ... ial-manual
"former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin was caught on video kneeling on the neck of George Floyd as he lay handcuffed on the ground for more than several minutes, including nearly three minutes after he appeared to stop breathing. Chauvin was charged Friday with third-degree murder and manslaughter in Floyd's death.

https://www.salon.com/2020/06/01/minnea ... -analysis/

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Re: America on Fire

Post by nikotromus » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:55 pm

Am I missing something here? The death was NOT ruled as asphyxiation, right? I never said the guy wasn't killed by the cops.

By the way, I've been choked out dozens of times, and I never once said "I can't breathe", or "Hey you guys want to get pizza after this". Because, when you're being choked out you can't talk. That's why wrestlers tap out - they can't say the words "Uncle!"

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fraggle092
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Re: America on Fire

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:05 pm

nikotromus wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:55 pm
Am I missing something here? The death was NOT ruled as asphyxiation, right? I never said the guy wasn't killed by the cops.

By the way, I've been choked out dozens of times, and I never once said "I can't breathe", or "Hey you guys want to get pizza after this". Because, when you're being choked out you can't talk. That's why wrestlers tap out - they can't say the words "Uncle!"
Yes.

From updated Wikipedia
Two autopsies were conducted and found that the manner of death was homicide.[24][25] The Hennepin County medical examiner's autopsy found that Floyd died from cardiac arrest while being restrained by officers who had employed "neck compression", with significant conditions "arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; and recent methamphetamine use".[25] An independent private autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family found that the "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause" of death, with neck compression restricting blood flow to the brain, and back compression restricting breathing.[26][27][24]
Lawsuit time coming up.
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mem
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Re: America on Fire

Post by mem » Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:59 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:05 pm
nikotromus wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:55 pm
Am I missing something here? The death was NOT ruled as asphyxiation, right? I never said the guy wasn't killed by the cops.

By the way, I've been choked out dozens of times, and I never once said "I can't breathe", or "Hey you guys want to get pizza after this". Because, when you're being choked out you can't talk. That's why wrestlers tap out - they can't say the words "Uncle!"
Yes.

From updated Wikipedia
Two autopsies were conducted and found that the manner of death was homicide.[24][25] The Hennepin County medical examiner's autopsy found that Floyd died from cardiac arrest while being restrained by officers who had employed "neck compression", with significant conditions "arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; and recent methamphetamine use".[25] An independent private autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family found that the "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause" of death, with neck compression restricting blood flow to the brain, and back compression restricting breathing.[26][27][24]
Lawsuit time coming up.
Good grief...Fentanyl and Speed? Fentanyl is even more dangerous than Heroin in terms of overdose risk and then the meth to boot.

The Dominican Republic had a spat of tourist resorts/hotels with tainted alcohol where Fentanyl was injected into liquor bottles to kill tourists (some of you may remember this from last year or so). In fact a Chile expat that we were friends with died under these more than suspicious conditions while visiting the DR for considering buying property there. Leaving his Chilena spouse a widower. It was very sad. That was the first I had heard of Fentanyl..I thought it was just a straight up poison. Next was when I watched some skidrow interviews (soft white underbelly yt channel) of addicts that had moved from heroin to fentanyl for getting high purposes...even though it was so much more expensive and deadly than heroin. :?

At any rate, it's pretty clear that if nothing else the stress of being subdued wasn't helping a man in his incredibly degraded and vulnerable physiological condition. All of those components (drugs, heart issues, stressful arrest/pinned) played some level of role in the death.

Of course each side will minimize the components that support the version of the narrative that serves them best whether its Benjamin Chump, the family, The police department management, the involved officers, or the protesters.

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snobrd4life
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Re: America on Fire

Post by snobrd4life » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:38 pm

nikotromus wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:55 pm
By the way, I've been choked out dozens of times"...
I could write a whole lot more in comment to that one line, but you hit the nail on the head with that one.
ese ruido blanco es una alarma en mis oídos
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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:57 pm

In Union There Is Strength

I have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words "Equal Justice Under Law" are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a "battlespace" that our uniformed military is called upon to "dominate." At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict— between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part.

Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders

who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.

James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that "America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more

forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat." We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.

Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that "The Nazi slogan for destroying us...was 'Divide and Conquer.' Our American answer is 'In Union there is Strength.'" We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln's "better angels," and listen to them, as we work to unite.

Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.

James Mattis
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cali_chile48
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Re: America on Fire

Post by cali_chile48 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:00 am

And Pumpkinhead's response:

"Probably the only thing Barack Obama and I have in common is that we both had the honor of firing Jim Mattis, the world’s most overrated General," Trump wrote. "I asked for his letter of resignation, & felt great about it. His nickname was 'Chaos', which I didn’t like, & changed it to 'Mad Dog.' His primary strength was not military, but rather personal public relations. I gave him a new life, things to do, and battles to win, but he seldom 'brought home the bacon'. I didn’t like his 'leadership' style or much else about him, and many others agree. Glad he is gone!"

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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:43 am

cali_chile48 wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:00 am
And Pumpkinhead's response:

"Probably the only thing Barack Obama and I have in common is that we both had the honor of firing Jim Mattis, the world’s most overrated General," Trump wrote. "I asked for his letter of resignation, & felt great about it. His nickname was 'Chaos', which I didn’t like, & changed it to 'Mad Dog.' His primary strength was not military, but rather personal public relations. I gave him a new life, things to do, and battles to win, but he seldom 'brought home the bacon'. I didn’t like his 'leadership' style or much else about him, and many others agree. Glad he is gone!"

Is he talking about mattis or himself?
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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:36 pm

good article on the history of the Minneapolis police union and racism.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23B2LL

Squares with lot of the stories my father had from being a prosecutor about the Minneapolis PD.

Let's just say in my house growing-up we were warned 'the police are not always your friends'. We were white, middle class, and my father was a prosecutor.

what do you think black families have to tell their kids?
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Re: America on Fire

Post by nikotromus » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:44 pm

I'll take the "lazy" Chilean cops with strings tied to the butt of their revolvers any day over the trained to shoot/beat first, ask questions later, hyper militarized cops in the U.S. Hopefully the Andy Griffith style of police forces don't change there, but who knows after the the recent riots.

I don't think the color of your skin matters all that much to the cops smashing your teeth into the burm of a sidewalk. Try sassing a cop in the U.S. like Fraggle witnessed the other day. They would never turn the other cheek like Jesus here. It wouldn't matter if your skin was purple.

Here's an undeniable fact - If you get into the country far enough, the riots and the looting and the police and even the cooties epidemic doesn't really matter that much. Varying countries be damned - it's cities vs. the campo. Grow your own food, raise your own chickens, disconnect from the system little by little and things start to look better and better outside of your bedroom window.

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Re: America on Fire

Post by admin » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:19 am

nikotromus wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:44 pm
I'll take the "lazy" Chilean cops with strings tied to the butt of their revolvers any day over the trained to shoot/beat first, ask questions later, hyper militarized cops in the U.S. Hopefully the Andy Griffith style of police forces don't change there, but who knows after the the recent riots.

I don't think the color of your skin matters all that much to the cops smashing your teeth into the burm of a sidewalk. Try sassing a cop in the U.S. like Fraggle witnessed the other day. They would never turn the other cheek like Jesus here. It wouldn't matter if your skin was purple.

Here's an undeniable fact - If you get into the country far enough, the riots and the looting and the police and even the cooties epidemic doesn't really matter that much. Varying countries be damned - it's cities vs. the campo. Grow your own food, raise your own chickens, disconnect from the system little by little and things start to look better and better outside of your bedroom window.
Chileans don't get it, especially young Chileans. The protesters and young people are able to attack the police and otherwise disrespect them in Chile, exactly because they have luxury of having a police force they are not afraid of. That is not common, even among a lot of developed countries.

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen videos in Chile of a group of people attacking a single, isolated police officer, and the police most the time still do not pull their gun out. At most, I have seen them fire a warning shot; but, in the vast majority of cases, where it was more than obvious to any reasonable person that shooting in self-defense was more than justified in the situation, they still had the discipline to not do it. even at the risk of their own life.

As for the campo vs. city, I am amazed by the long waiting list of gringos (and other foriegners) I got right now that are desperately trying to get in to Chile. They are all waiting for the travel restrictions to be lifted, so they can either get back to Chile or move to Chile for the first time. In spite of everything that has gone on in Chile (social crisis, pandemic, etc), they simply all say it is no where near as scary as what is going on in the United States.

There is another group of gringos that has suprised me too. Gringos that got trapped in Chile. Many of them could go back to the United States. There are limited out bound flights to the united states.

Now, they are just putting down roots. Many were just tourist. A few I have talked to were thinking about going back once the pandemic settled down a bit, but the protests convinced them to stay. many I have talked to say they are staying at least until after the U.S. elections are over (which is pretty much guaranteed to have a second wave of the pandemic with it).
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nikotromus
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Re: America on Fire

Post by nikotromus » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:01 pm

admin wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:19 am
As for the campo vs. city, I am amazed by the long waiting list of gringos (and other foriegners) I got right now that are desperately trying to get in to Chile.
Wow things turned around quick (or people have short memories). Every gringo I talked to in Chile just a handful of months ago was at the very least second guessing their decisions, with many making plans to leave. Maybe if people take up a second residence in Chile, instead of chasing endless summers, they can use it as a base to flee civil unrest back and forth.

I have a sinking feeling that Chile will be closed for business until the vaccine comes out. I log in here every day to check the lockdown updates and it doesn't show any signs of letting up.

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