Chile's Place in Latin America

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:48 pm

i think countries can do 'socialism', just everybody makes the mistake of looking at socialism and capitialism as being on some sort if continuem.in fact it is the "ism" part that destroys both socialism and capitialism. neither is a cult, nor are they sucide pacts.

capitalism is how a country makes its money. socialism is a how it chooses to spend the money.

however the way it has historicaly been done is like a family that wants to send their kids to a good private school. so dad quits his job, shoots mom, burns the family house down, and stops feeding the kids; but, hey the kids go to a good school. mission acomplished.

it is not a zero sum game, one or the other. social programs, can support capitial programs.

the largest, highest impact, most succesful, socialist program in history, was the u.s. G.I. bill in post war america; but no one considers that "socialism". which happened right along side a few little social programs that rebuilt europe and japan.

it lit a fire under the american economy that is only now starting to burn out. it put roof over my families head for more than 50 years (my dad rolled his g.i mortgage guarentee to buy over 30 properties in his lifetime), it sent my father to the university, then law school. that caused most of his kids to go to the university. hell, it built the universities system in the united states. those guys that were hardly literate before wwll, went on to build one of the largest economies in history; all for little seed money targeted at just the right group.

hell, the continuation of that is the u.s. military industrial complex. they systemitized the whole wealfair and poverty system in the united states to feed the military warm bodies and cash. in fact, what is a military machine that is so socialist it is integrated in to the economy and society to such an extent that Lenin would be jealous.

but this marxist communist manifesto bullshit that pushes for destroy everything and starting from scratch in order for socialism to work is just a handbook for corruption, slavery, and dictators. it is ironicaly as close to an unrestricted sort of Hobbesian capitialism as you will ever get, that becomes every man for himself.
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nwdiver
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by nwdiver » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:48 pm

at46 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm
nwdiver wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:27 pm
at46 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:40 am
admin wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:50 am
through that whole conversation notice no one even brought up the venezuelan military. they don't even get a dishonerable mention.

i bet if someone takes out maduro, the military capitulates in short order, minus a few desperate officers that know they are next.

in the case venezuela, what is the country going to colapse without the maduro regime in power? don't think anyone is going to miss him.
I don't think Russia/China would have invested any money in Venezuela if they were not confident in the stability of the current regime, with or without Maduro. The thing people refuse to realize about Venezuela, is that it works for a lot of people, strange as it might seem. Isn't it the country with the greatest number of large SUVs in the Americas because you can fill up one of those gas guzzlers at one thousandth of the cost of the Starbucks coffee? I bet that fact alone is driving a lot of the 'we the people' herd crazy.

Imagine what kind of socialist paradise they could have built on top of their largest world oil reserves had it not been for the next door capitalist empire whose very existence is threatened by the slightest hint of socialist success.

So it's not about Maduro or the strength or weakness of the Venezuelan military but a century old battle of ideologies exacerbated at this moment in history by the unprecedented rise of China and the obstinate refusal of Russia to shut up and go away.
The socialist dream will never function it has never had a chance, greed is the foundation of human nature.........it in our genes.
Well, that's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? I see it more like a phase in personal development. In good societies the difference between lowest and highest payed members used to be like three times, which left plenty of room for people's self-interest to play itself out. Made up of workers/farmers, educators, doctors, small bourgeoisie and smart government administrators basing their decisions on science, a society like that used to give a lot of options for all kinds of people to realize themselves. And I actually think we're going back to it, I just need to find my gilet jeune :)
I'm an evolutionary biologist, self interest, need to move ones genes forward.......in short greed.
It's all about the wine.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by Space Cat » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:19 am

Space Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 pm
The term for this is "Potemkin village", it's an old and significant part of Russian management culture named after count Potemkin from the 18th century who was building fake villages to impress the Empress.
Here's a perfect example from yesterday: "'Hi-tech robot' at Russia forum turns out to be man in suit". No amount of fan fiction about the Russian tech and weapons will make them a serious threat. It's all state-sponsored bluff.
nwdiver wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:27 pm
The socialist dream will never function it has never had a chance, greed is the foundation of human nature.........it in our genes.
Yep, the political systems of the extreme left and the extreme right are based on the assumption that 100% of government or even society (hello, anarchists) will behave ethically all the time.

But even with a working Star Trek replicator, some people will get bored and start fighting for petty reasons. SMBC nailed it:

Image

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by mem » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:56 am

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:19 am
Space Cat wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:57 pm
The term for this is "Potemkin village", it's an old and significant part of Russian management culture named after count Potemkin from the 18th century who was building fake villages to impress the Empress.
Here's a perfect example from yesterday: "'Hi-tech robot' at Russia forum turns out to be man in suit". No amount of fan fiction about the Russian tech and weapons will make them a serious threat. It's all state-sponsored bluff.
nwdiver wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:27 pm
The socialist dream will never function it has never had a chance, greed is the foundation of human nature.........it in our genes.
Yep, the political systems of the extreme left and the extreme right are based on the assumption that 100% of government or even society (hello, anarchists) will behave ethically all the time.

But even with a working Star Trek replicator, some people will get bored and start fighting for petty reasons. SMBC nailed it:

Image
Bahahahahahhaa ROFL.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by bert.douglas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:44 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:19 am
Here's a perfect example from yesterday: "'Hi-tech robot' at Russia forum turns out to be man in suit". No amount of fan fiction about the Russian tech and weapons will make them a serious threat. It's all state-sponsored bluff.
The same guy in the same suit has been performing at that Yaroslav event for several years. It was an obvious parody of old TV shows involving robots from 50 years ago. Think "lost in space".

One reporter from russian state TV was too stupid to recognize parody, and took it as real. If you are doing heavy-handed media manipulation, you have to hire stupid reporters. The smart ones have either been killed or have fled Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya

As for Russian military might. They obviously don't have resources to build as many aircraft carriers as the USA. However, their new hypersonic missiles can sink any aircraft carrier at will. The USA should stop wasting money on aircraft carriers. They are just very expensive and defenseless targets. But as always the military cannot stop trying to fight the last war. If a war ever happens (unlikely) between the USA and Russia, all of the aircraft carriers will be on the bottom of the ocean, before the end of the first day of fighting.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by Space Cat » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:33 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:44 pm
One reporter from russian state TV was too stupid to recognize parody, and took it as real. If you are doing heavy-handed media manipulation, you have to hire stupid reporters.
Or they did it on purpose because while a small group of people will ridicule this on the Internet, the average TV viewer trusts them and doesn't fact-check. I've seen so much BS on Russian media that I believe no lie and fact-twisting can be too bold there.
bert.douglas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:44 pm
As for Russian military might. They obviously don't have resources to build as many aircraft carriers as the USA. However, their new hypersonic missiles can sink any aircraft carrier at will. The USA should stop wasting money on aircraft carriers. They are just very expensive and defenseless targets. But as always the military cannot stop trying to fight the last war. If a war ever happens (unlikely) between the USA and Russia, all of the aircraft carriers will be on the bottom of the ocean, before the end of the first day of fighting.
Maybe they have some cool tricks for a quick response or attack but Russian armed forces can't stand long in a serious conflict because of being horribly mismanaged and outdated (again, in general, no doubt there are some good parts).

For example, look at the Navy: except for the frigates and a few corvettes, every other ship was built in the USSR, 30 years ago. Not every ship in the list can actually sail. The only aircraft carrier is infamous for poor management and accidents. The submarines are doing better but they're for nukes.

The country's tactics is basically bullying small neighbors and enjoying being untouchable because of the nukes. No way they can go for a non-proxy war outside of Facebook trolling.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by Huelshoff » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:05 pm

The Russians have some other problems, too. I recall that shortly after their incursion into the Crimea and eastern Ukraine it was reported that they couldn't go much further because of logistic problems. It was suggested that they couldn't keep a division in the field for more than a week or so before they started running out of food and ammunition. Additionally, they are highly dependent on each year's call up. Russians serve two years, and it takes them about 18 months to complete their training. Thus each cohort has about six months of effective use before they are let go. At the time, that was pointed to as a possible indicator that the Russians were planning a larger campaign--if they kept that year's cohort, then they were serious.

All that reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a retired German fighter pilot. He explained to me that the reason NATO would have had command of the air after a few days of fighting in a general (conventional) war in central Europe was because the Soviets didn't do maintenance on their jet engines--they just replaced them when they wore out. A couple of days of heavy use and they would all be grounded. Bureaucracies being what they are, I don't image there has been much change from the Soviet to the Russian times. Its still the Red Army.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by at46 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:02 pm

Huelshoff wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:05 pm
All that reminds me of a conversation I had many years ago with a retired German fighter pilot. He explained to me that the reason NATO would have had command of the air after a few days of fighting in a general (conventional) war in central Europe was because the Soviets didn't do maintenance on their jet engines--they just replaced them when they wore out. A couple of days of heavy use and they would all be grounded. Bureaucracies being what they are, I don't image there has been much change from the Soviet to the Russian times. Its still the Red Army.
I think your German friend was talking about cannibalization, i.e. taking parts from one aircraft to keep another one operational. That's nothing unusual in any army around the world. In Russia they had a huge buildup of all kinds of planes in the sixties and seventies and then had to maintain them for the duration of their service life per manufacturers' specifications. So if a plane was made in 1970 to serve 25 years, you couldn't just write it off in 1985 after Gorby's wife changed the country's defense concept, but had to maintain it for another ten years, fly it once per year to make sure it's operational etc. And just like with old, out of production cars, if you want to maintain one, buy two.

Since your German pilot apparently didn't know that, it makes me wonder what were his actual qualifications. 'Bureaucracies being what they are', means every little step in aviation is documented and there's someone signing off on the maintenance schedule, fuel, ammunition, flight plans, weather conditions, landing strip cleanliness (and I'm not talking about waxing), pilot hours, and many other things. When something goes wrong, they are almost always capable of pin pointing the exact person at fault, and that person, as well as his superiors, loose out on their promotions, pay and pension or even go to jail. It's just how the system works everywhere, not just Russia.

Which actually brings me to another point - if your gear is expensive, like, F-35 expensive, and I think that thing is the most expensive military aircraft ever made, how scared would a pilot be to fly it? I mean the psychological pressure is enormous. One tiny wrong move and you're back to flying drones over GMO cornfields. And mechanics? Do you see an experienced older mechanic actually wanting to risk his status and career touching this thing?

Here's an interesting picture just for fun https://ibb.co/Jnz2myC
The guy is painting rivets and anchor bolts on an F-35. All is good, except that each rivet needs to be covered with seven different compounds and there only 40,000 rivets on that thing! How about doing that kinda work in 'field conditions'? What happens if the guy simply confuses the sequence of layers on any one of those 40K rivets? Just one centimeter of stealth cover missing is enough for the plane to light up like Christmas tree on radar screens. I for one don't see these things ever doing any actual combat duty apart from some infowar PR stunts.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by Huelshoff » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:40 pm

Well, I really couldn't speak to the accuracy of his knowledge, as I just spoke with him over lunch while on a Federal Election tour. When I met him, he was retired from the Bundeswehr Luftwaffe, after flying F-105 Starfighters for many years and ending his career as a senior officer before taking a senior position in the CSU. Regardless, I think it wrong to apply western standards to the Soviet military, and from everything I have heard since, the Russian military. The entire Soviet production system was based on units produced, not quality of those units. That mentality was applied to the military, too. What he was describing was the pressure put on commanders to report the highest number of planes available on any given day (meet the target, damn the quality), which is why they wouldn't take any units out of combat for regular maintenance. That way of thinking is what brought down the Soviet system. The entire planning system was based on units produced. That is why a pair of shoes would fall apart in a few days, and why your washing machine would break down in a week after you waited eight years to get it delivered after purchase.

They also never wrote anything off. This was a big problem when the Soviet system collapsed starting in 1989. In East Germany, the book value of firms was completely bogus, because everything the production unit had ever acquired was kept on the books regardless of its actual value. I remember stories of factories that had the original value on their books of trucks acquired twenty years before, even though the trucks had rotted away in the back lot. Played hell with efforts to privatize those units. Its the Russians, after all, who invented the term Potemkin Village.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:37 am

you guys are aware that Russians only air craft carrier was sunk /damaged recently, along with their only floating dry dock able to services large ships?

they effectivly are out of the big boat biz now.
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by at46 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:27 am

admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:37 am
you guys are aware that Russians only air craft carrier was sunk /damaged recently, along with their only floating dry dock able to services large ships?

they effectivly are out of the big boat biz now.
Oops, someone is about to loose a couple of their huevos de Fabergé...

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:27 pm

does not strike me as much of a threat:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/31/euro ... index.html
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