Chile's Place in Latin America

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mem
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by mem » Fri May 11, 2018 10:29 pm

AnciaVagar wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:41 pm
mem wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 5:03 pm
...
I am just talking about as a trade partner and/or ally and in terms of the few super powers in the world, China seems to be the best (in terms of trade) for Chile to ally with...
You should read the terms China imposed on Venezuela in their "loans."

According to the China University of Petroleum, Beijing -- a government think-tank for policy -- the pay back is based on a fixed reference price of oil. When the price is higher, the same number of barrels is owed; when the price is lower, the same money is owed. A guaranteed lose-lose for Vz. Of course most of the money was not transferred, but remained as a credit (but still owed regardless of delivery) in China to buy Chinese goods and services at jacked-up prices. So lose-lose-lose for Vz. And, China knew the Cuban enchufados would steal most of the cash, so lose-lose-lose-lose for the Venezuelan el pueblo.

How's that high speed rail system coming along?

So let me be blunt: Chile and Chilean businesses should stay as far away from China and Chinese businesses as possible.
Again, i dont disagree. Clearly, China is a shark when ot comes to negotiating trade terms. I suppose VZ accepted those terms...that is on them. China is not a charity, they are going to try to get great terms. Now that being said, I am not sure VZ is apples for apples with Chile. VZ is over a barrel and the whole world knows it. They have very few friends and trade allies. Chile and china on the other hand have a somewhat more balances trade relationship. Chile is not over a barrel. I guess my point is that China is the only superpower in proximity of shipping lanes to chile. Not the eu, not the us, not russia, etc. China is directly across the Pacific and chile has the rural farm land and produce that China desires as well as raw ore and lithium.
To take china off the table as some are suggesting, I just dont see a practical replacement. Australia? Sure there is some trade with them, again because of shipping lane proximity, but they arent really a superpower like the US, EU, Russia, or China. They simply dont have the scale that the supers offer. I just dont see a viable replacement. China is the most practical superpower trade partner for chile. And I think, at least compared to other south american countries, Chile garners the most respect from China. Clearly they dont respect VZ but that isnt saying much...who really does in the world. An argument could be made for Brazil in primacy to Chile, but i think Brazil is not far behind argentina. A mess in more ways than one where the chickens will be coming home to roost soon. Chile is still the richest significant country per capita in all of south and central america. China knows that and it is keenly aware of the trade benefits chile can off it (with stability) that ni other country can in shipping lane proximity

41southchile
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by 41southchile » Sat May 12, 2018 3:00 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 2:58 pm
"No superpower is perfect, and China has its flaws like any other".

China is much worse than Europe/US/Japan, much worse than most countries. You can't just dismiss it like that. Of course, US etc have many serious problems and ethical issues in society, but not to the same level.

China is a country where you can't speak the truth (at least not on certain issues), there is no demcocracy, no free press, and the government controls everything, brainwashing the people (at least on certain issues). Its flaws are much more severe compared to most other serious/major countries. Just research Taiwan, Falun Gong, democracy, freedom of speech issues, punishment for dissidents. Not to mention men of only one ethnicity hold all of the power in an unelected way, corrupt country, lagging the world in animal rights, poisoning the tibetan plateua with nuclear waste, relations with the Dalai lama, constant local environmental issues, wealth disparity, oppression of simple local people trying to get involved in politics, the huge world-leading biometrics system they are building to spy on their own citizens anywhere anytime, the fact that they don't respect intellectual property, organ harvesting, political prisoners, torture and prison treatment, more capital punishment than the rest of the world put together, racist treatment towards minorities on and on go the immense littany of bad things about China.

I think part of the reason we turn a blind eye to China is that it at least keeps its problems fairly internal. Unlike countries like Russia and Iran which are a threat to their neighbours (or US which is a threat much further afield), China is probably not going to invade Mongolia or India. The very idea seems absurd. The convention is to keep your human rights abuses in your own country and don't bother others.

Perhaps that's the reason why we currently have severe sanctions on Iran coming out of Trump white house while China gets only a few much less severe trade taxes. Although Iran isn't ethically worse than China to its own citizens, it is destabilizing to the middle East, sending troops to Syria, perceived as a threat to Israel etc.

It's a shame that Western powers conduct their diplomacy based on their own natural security interests and keeping the peace, rather than broader ethical concerns. North Korea is even worse than China for human rights, yes this is largely ignored by US administrations that are more concerned about the nuclear threat, almost to the total exclusion of even speaking out about these abuses.
You raise interesting points on many arguments on many things but I am a little unsure on your views of diplomacy and how you think it should be conducted. Western powers (or any powers) don't conduct their diplomacy on ethical concerns quite frankly because thats not what diplomacy is about, as you rightly point out it is about protecting their own interests and to be honest they dont really have a leg to stand on a lot of the time on some ethical issues, you seem to think that the goal of diplomacy is some sort of human rights expanding excercise, when keeping the peace as you pointed out and protecting ones owns interests is the goal. No there are not as many "freedom's" as other countries no there is no "democracy" . It's different it's not what we in the west are used to, and to tell the truth if they think that's the best way to operate their country then so be it, giving every Tom, Dick and Harry a say in every thing that happens in a country of 1.2 billion is never going to end well. Shit half the time I wonder if a few western countries wouldn't be better off having a bit less interference from the general population and left the running of their countries to experts and people that know what they are doing. China is what it is because the are all mostly on one page and playing the long game, where as a lot of the time the west doesn't know what the hell it's doing and have to many cooks in the kitchen all pushing their own agendas.
Is China perfect ? No, far from it, but I am not sure it's as negative as you make out, just because they don't fit into the boxes of western values and ethics. China wants to be respected and to be a global leader and I imagine learn from the wests mistakes, which I believe is a better path to take rather than be forced to copy what the west thinks is the right way of doing things.
In the Lakes Region Chile for 6 years. It looks like New Zealand in some ways, and is nearly at the bottom of the world too, but there the similarities end.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by at46 » Sat May 12, 2018 8:55 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 11:40 pm
Hers something interesting related to previous few days discussion
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chil ... SKBN1I93C7
That's an incredibly pointed comment by the Chinese guy quoted in the article:

"He said China had invested just $200 million in Chile’s copper industry, versus upwards of $20 billion in neighboring Peru, the world’s No. 2 producer of copper, in part because China preferred to negotiate with governments over private companies.

“They are very similar countries, with abundant mineral resources, but the problem is the majority of (copper) mine owners are foreigners (in Chile),” he said."

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Sun May 13, 2018 11:09 am

I seen some pretty terrible stuff when i lived in china, but also came to understand about what 'human rights' means when the most common thing the country is humans, and thus often the least valuable commodity.

The most important lesson was my first hours in china.

My wife and i Landed at the shanghi airport. We made our way by bus to the train station. All very civilized and western.

We stepped through the door of the train station and i caught my breath at the sight of so many people. The first thing that went through my mind was 'where the hell is the police and army'? Why are they not controlling this riot?

It was just a normal evening at the shanghi train station with Thousands, tens of thousands, and what seemed like a hundred thousands (perhaps it was) of people coming and going.

Each line for the ticket booth, dozens of booths, must have been several hundred people each.

You know what?

We got in line. In about 10 mins, we had our ticket in hand. A line in the west never moves that fast or that organized.

Human rights is premised on some very specific western philosophies about the value of humans in society.
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by HybridAmbassador » Sun May 13, 2018 3:21 pm

admin wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:09 am
I seen some pretty terrible stuff when i lived in china, but also came to understand about what 'human rights' means when the most common thing the country is humans, and thus often the least valuable commodity.

The most important lesson was my first hours in china.

My wife and i Landed at the shanghi airport. We made our way by bus to the train station. All very civilized and western.

We stepped through the door of the train station and i caught my breath at the sight of so many people. The first thing that went through my mind was 'where the hell is the police and army'? Why are they not controlling this riot?

It was just a normal evening at the shanghi train station with Thousands, tens of thousands, and what seemed like a hundred thousands (perhaps it was) of people coming and going.

Each line for the ticket booth, dozens of booths, must have been several hundred people each.

You know what?

We got in line. In about 10 mins, we had our ticket in hand. A line in the west never moves that fast or that organized.

Human rights is premised on some very specific western philosophies about the value of humans in society.
Whilst in China, all foreign travelers be aware ...Never travel in sleeper night Buses..After exiting that stinking Bus taking showers for days and trying to rinse the nostril but still the stench of that devastating stinking foot stench remains in the nose! Chinese don't wash their foot and keep wearing the same socks for weeks! Just imagine you being in that steaming night sleeper coach inhaling that awfully stinking foot odor all night long..! In contrast, the full cama sleeper Bus going to Valdivia and back, not a single odor. Kudos to the Chileans for their personal hygiene and lots of deodorant usages..
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by Britkid » Sun May 13, 2018 10:58 pm

I see Trump in not in agreement with me....

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast. Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by at46 » Mon May 14, 2018 4:02 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:58 pm
I see Trump in not in agreement with me....

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

President Xi of China, and I, are working together to give massive Chinese phone company, ZTE, a way to get back into business, fast. Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!
With November elections coming up, Trump is: (1) sending a clear message to the California/San Francisco crowd as to which way they should vote; (2) beefing up his negotiation position vs China; and (3) feeling the pulse on the US media's neck with 'Too many jobs in China lost' comment. Three birds with one stone...

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by HybridAmbassador » Tue May 15, 2018 2:30 pm

PRC could own the world by 2020 with more than US$20 trillion capitalistic enslavement.
China to become one of world’s biggest overseas investors by 2020, US the West and Japan has given China an enormous wealth to unleash its softpower for world's dominance.


China will become one of the world’s biggest cross-border investors by the end of this decade, with global offshore assets tripling from $6.4tn now to nearly $20tn by 2020, according to research.

While much of the total will be in the form of foreign exchange reserves and portfolio investment, a growing share will come from direct Chinese investment in developed western countries, according to a joint report by the economic research firm Rhodium Group and the Berlin-based Mercator Institute for China Studies.

Based on the historical experiences of other countries, China’s global stock of outbound foreign direct investment (OFDI), which includes investing in corporate mergers, acquisitions and start-ups, will grow from $744bn to as much as $2tn by 2020.

The report’s projections are valuable because official cross-border OFDI statistics from China and recipient countries are widely seen as being of poor quality and do not give an accurate picture of real investment flows.

In barely a decade, Chinese OFDI has gone from virtually nothing to more than $100bn year, launching it into the top three exporters of direct investment globally.

Europe in particular has welcomed the Chinese largesse with open arms, especially in the wake of the global financial crisis and sluggish eurozone economic growth.

But the report warned that surging Chinese investment would also require a change in attitude from recipient markets and their politicians to take full advantage of the opportunities and contain the risks.

“Characteristics such as the size, growth and complementarity of the Chinese economy create unique opportunities for Europe,” the report’s authors said. “At the same time, some specific concerns that are related to the nature of China’s political and economic system, for example subsidies, China’s authoritarian political system and lack of openness to [foreign direct investment], create particular challenges.”

While early Chinese investments focused on energy and natural resource assets in developing countries, investors are increasingly looking to the US and Europe for fresh opportunities.

Between 2000 and 2014, Chinese companies spent €46bn on 1,047 direct investments in the 28 EU countries, with most of the transactions coming in the wake of the 2008-09 global financial crisis.

The UK is by far the biggest recipient of Chinese direct investment, with a cumulative total of €12.2bn over that period. Germany is second with €6.9bn and France third with €5.9bn.

Following a drop in 2013 to €6bn, from more than €7bn each year in 2011 and 2012, Chinese investment in Europe came surging back in 2014, hitting a record high of €14bn for the whole year.

Europe’s energy, automotive, food and real estate sectors attracted the most Chinese money.

Despite the recent sharp rise and heady predictions for Chinese outbound investment in the future, the country is still playing catch-up.

“China is so unique and important because it is already a major global investor and it has the potential to become the single most important driver of global FDI growth over the next decade,” the report said.

While China is the world’s biggest trader of goods, its share of global financial cross-border assets and liabilities barely reached 3.4 per cent by 2011.

Today, its stock of OFDI as a proportion of GDP stands at just 7 per cent, compared to 38 per cent for the US, 20 per cent for Japan and 47 per cent for Germany.

One issue that could stymie the rise of Chinese investment is the ongoing difficulty international companies face trying to invest in China.

“In terms of formal restrictions to FDI, China is considered one of the least open countries among the G20 economies,” the report’s authors said. “Moreover, there is rampant informal discrimination against foreign companies as well.”

Another problem is that Chinese companies enjoy a range of state-provided subsidies, including cheap capital and assistance from the Chinese government, when investing abroad. By contrast, European companies are legally barred from receiving “state aid” when bidding for assets within Europe.

Since the “state aid” restriction only applies to European companies, many Chinese investors were able to outbid private European companies in competition for European assets because of help from Beijing.
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Tue May 15, 2018 8:55 pm

Yea, china is currently at it this week for the stake in sqm.

Statements by the china about a 'third party' lobbied the batchelet admnnistration to block the purchase, were followed yesterday by a string of paid pr blasts 0about how chile was turning anti-chinese investment and china was turning to argentina for lithium investment.

Then late today there was a "leak" that the chinese were buying 25% of the nutrino stake in sqm causing a major spike in the share price.t

He whole thing had the sort of chinese central goverment campaigns they do when they want something.
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by admin » Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 am

Chinese bought 24% of sqm. 3 companies now control 70% of the global lithium supply.

In related news, seems tesla tried to buy lithium from chile at $8,000 u.s. a ton. The market price is currently between 16,000 and 20,000.

What was more interesting, lithum has now become the 6th largest export of chile, with $830 million exported in 2017. That number should cross a billion this year easily with increase in production and price.
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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by mem » Thu May 17, 2018 11:15 am

Came across this shocking article on China and what they are doing to combat radical islam. Cant believe there hasnt been more coverage on this. I've known about FG for a long time, but surprised the islamic world is not staging a full scale revolutuon against china, when they dont tolerate other things coming out of Europe.

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Re: Chile's Place in Latin America

Post by mem » Thu May 17, 2018 11:16 am

mem wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:15 am
Came across this shocking article on China and what they are doing to combat radical islam. Cant believe there hasnt been more coverage on this. I've known about FG for a long time, but surprised the islamic world is not staging a full scale revolutuon against china, when they dont tolerate other things coming out of Europe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/china/a ... mrn_rm=rta

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