Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Chile related Travel issues, where to go and not to go, what it cost, and anything else to get you there and back in ALL OF CHILE.
User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:41 am

This whole thing feels like an orchestrated leftwing challenge to the government, and Magallanes always has been that way inclined anyway.
The government has to win this one, if they back down it will send a signal to every other community with a grievance that civil disorder is the way to get what they want. But if force is used, the opposition will have a field day . Difficult.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

PenquistaDeCorazon
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:50 am

Re: No Win for Chile

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:42 am

patagoniax wrote:
JHyre wrote:No win situation for Chile. If the pacos take a more "1980's" approach (my preference for dealing with rabble) and simply move in and clear out the scum, the press gets lots of images of mean, mean police smacking poor, poor "protesters". Under present approach, rabble runs the show, order breaks down and property and lives start to suffer, sets a very unfortunate precedent and Chile's reputation for stability goes down a notch. Black eye for Chile either way, press will spin negative no matter what.

All because the rabble wants its "freebie". Not that we know anything about that type of mentality here in the US.

John Hyre
Personally I hope they are going to reopen the camps for the rabble in Isla Dawson, with no gas.

Image
At the risk of being labeled a trol my friend, I do not think reopening Dawson as an internment camp would gain any more political traction than reopening Auschwitz. :)

And no I am not comparing the two in terms of what happened as Auschwitz was a bona fide extermination camp. Just don't think that politically Pinera would do it. Actually it seems like he is going out of his way to not make it appear like he has an itchy trigger finger in releasing the pacos.

User avatar
JHyre
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1991
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:08 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by JHyre » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:59 am

And no I am not comparing the two in terms of what happened as Auschwitz was a bona fide extermination camp. Just don't think that politically Pinera would do it. Actually it seems like he is going out of his way to not make it appear like he has an itchy trigger finger in releasing the pacos.
We agree. I'll take it a step farther, such that you may not agree. The willingness of the Left and the press (pretty much the same thing in the US, less so in Chile) to depict the forces of law & order as having "itchy trigger fingers" leads directly to what we are seeing. The deaths and damage can be laid directly at the door of demoguoges in the press/on the Left who attach an artificial and unwise price to enforcing order. Vintage Allinskyite tactics.

Proper response: Order to disperse, backed by phalanx of riot police ready to use batons, tear gas and water cannon to disperse and arrest "protesters". Those protesters who use deadly force (e.g. molotov cocktails) should find themselves on the wrong end of massive, immediate and violent response.

And yes, I know. The "protesters" are poor and trod upon by the upper classes. Doesn't excuse the present behavior, nor does said behavior make things better for them, very much the opposite. And before calling for more "social programs", bear in mind that the spark here was at root a "social program".

John Hyre

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 21835
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by admin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:16 pm

From the always timely and on top of things U.S. embassy.
Warden Message ? Demonstrations in Southern Chile

January 13, 2011


The U.S. Embassy in Santiago, Chile recommends that U.S. citizens traveling in or planning travel to southern Chile read the following guidance closely. Travelers may encounter travel and transportation difficulties related to ongoing public demonstrations and strikes in the Magallanes (XII) Region. This area includes the popular summer tourist destinations of Punta Arenas, Puerto Natales, and Torres del Paine National Park. The protests are disrupting air and road travel to/from the area, and may negatively affect travel plans. The U.S. Embassy in Santiago recommends that if you have planned travel to the area that you check with your tour operator, hotel, airline, and/or the U.S. Embassy and that you inform yourself of possible risk and inconvenience. Those deciding to travel to the area should avoid large gatherings or increased police presence.

Since Tuesday, January 11, several thousand people have been protesting the national government?s decision to eliminate natural gas subsidies. These protests have resulted in road closures, the closure of many businesses, delays at airports, suspended transportation services, and difficulty traveling into and out of cities to visit major tourist destinations, including Torres del Paine National Park. CONAF, Chile?s national park service, recommended on January 13 that tourists delay traveling into Torres del Paine. Roads from Puerto Natales and Punta Arenas to Argentina have also been blocked. An unknown number of tourists, including Americans, are unable to make planned flights or travel freely due to strikes and roadblocks. At a minimum, delays to travel plans should be anticipated. Two Chileans died in an apparent accident at a roadblock, and police have arrested over 40 protestors. It is unclear when the situation will return to normal; protest leaders are currently n
egotiating with local and central authorities.

Even demonstrations that are meant to be peaceful can become violent and unpredictable. Avoid them if possible. Be alert and aware of your surroundings, pay attention to what the local news media has to say, and follow all official instructions. Contact airports, tourist agencies, and hotels in advance of your travel. Secure your travel documents at all times in a safe location. You should also contact friends and family in the United States with updates on your whereabouts and, when necessary, changes in your itinerary.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 21835
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by admin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:24 pm

O.k., to play a bit of devils advocate here. What is really concerning the strikers is that if the new government is willing to cut this subsidy, what else is on the budget chopping block. I would say a lot, now that the new government has started the process of booting the last of the old government bureaucrats and their consultants. There was a left friendly fat being pumped to the more remote regions to gain political favor.

One of the big ones we have encountered was the land grants for public concessions (e.g. fly fishing lodges using public property, etc) that were required to provide local jobs over every other consideration under the last government. Under the new government, they are canceling or modifying all those contracts and making environmental impact the prerequisite to get a concession on public land or simply not issuing concessions. Before, you just had to show how many jobs you would bring, and they would hand over land.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 21835
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by admin » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:06 pm

It is kind of like ignoring a crying baby in a super market. Let them throw their tantrum, and they will hopefully burn out.

Yea, I have to agree with wait them out siege strategy. The organizers have really not thought out the long-term effects, but that is a different issue. The rest of Chile is going on just fine, and has food and resources, and does not depend on that area to keep on going. Not the other way around.

I suspect at some point the Chilean military will go get the tourist at the request of the foreign embassies. I also agree with the carbinarios for not forcing their way through the barricades with buses of tourist (even if it makes some tourist unhappy and uncomfortable), because then they make the other tourist and foreigners priority targets of the protesters and they can not be protect at all times.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

Trapped tourist
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:20 pm

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by Trapped tourist » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:44 pm

Hi there, I am trapped, along with everyone else, in Punta Arenas. I've been going to the bus depot daily for any updates but as everyone knows it's a wait and see scenario. I went in to town today with my husband and there was a marked change in the atmosphere. We saw pickets outside the supermarket that were shouting at staff who had obviously been forced to shut up shop and leave. They looked very intimidated to us ....not at all pleasant. All the cafes are shut and we saw more cars with slogans on them and much more horn blowing. We managed to buy
some groceries at a corner shops for locals but we didn't feel particularly welcome.....not being local that is. We also saw a few cafes stocked with snacks, sandwiches etc, their shutters were down and staff standing at windows. We wondered if they would serve locals but not tourists? We have been told about a gathering for the tourists, where information will be given regarding the political action...or in action. All things considered we have decided to stay well clear. All though we do not like our situation we sympathise with the local people, however, this does not mean we are going to allow ourselves to become pawns in someone elses game. There have already been two deaths and serious injuries. It seems to us that this is a terrible price to pay for cheap fuel. As with all disputes something will have to give, let us hope it's not another life.

Flapjack
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:27 pm

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by Flapjack » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:56 pm

The unimarc on bulnes is open and the atmosphere is fine. One chileno stopped us in the aisle to say 'you are safe'. They have everything you need there and you can avoid the unwelcome feeling at the corner shops. I will also be staying away from the red cross announcements for now so if there is anything useful said please pass along the word on this forum. I have just heard the meeting was postponed from 3 to 5, purportedly out of respect for the funeral of the girls who died at the roadblock in PA.

I am going to call the U.S. embassy this afternoon and register a complaint with them regarding the effectiveness of the chilean authorities. Perhaps if others do the same we can help build pressure to bridge the roadblocks.

Also if anyone has updates on the airport i.e. are flights landing/departing, how many are stranded there,what conditions are like etc. This would be useful for those of us considering a move in that direction.

Thanks very much everyone for all your help.

oregon woodsmoke
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:23 pm

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:04 pm

[[[[.....It is kind of like ignoring a crying baby in a super market.'''']]]]]

Nobody ever asks me (can't imagine why) but I'd be making announcements that the price of gas would go up 1 % for every day of the strike, starting now. That would turn the protesters into the bad guys after a few days of watching the price go up every day.

Then couple that with the offer of an organized open mike forum where people could have their say and the government would promise to listen after the strike was over and things had settled down. Because I suspect that the price of gas was only the spark that ignited a whole long-term slew of grievances.

User avatar
zer0nz
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 5779
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:46 am
Location: Lost!
Contact:

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by zer0nz » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:00 pm

patagoniax wrote:Locals are even saying "we are not Chile - we are Magallanes."

Cool, thats easy, cut the gas, the food supplies, the lot from chile (woops they did this them selfs), treat them like their own country, see how long they survive with out the buying power of chile and the lack of subsidies of chile...,


they need to make up their mind, part of chile or not?, times change!!,

perhaps someone should buy a 100,000 copies of "who moved my cheese" in spanish and give it to them :)

Trapped tourist
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:20 pm

Re: Civil Strife Southern Patagonia Jnuary 2011

Post by Trapped tourist » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:03 pm

I can confirm that the funeral is taking place although the horns are still beeping.....clearly that doesn't count as a mark of respect. Perhaps they see it as furthering their cause, by that I mean, they continue the cause that the girls were fighting for. It is all incredibly sad and puts the tourists predicament in perspective........yet it is still such a waste of valuable life. Our sympathies are with their poor families. My feeling is that the funerals will spark further tension because those who want and seek out trouble will use unscrupulous means to find it.
With regards getting out of town, I have knowledge of a few leaving. They have got lifts to the borders and then hiked, this is clearly not an option for everyone. The bus company have told us they are hopeful for a bus leaving on Sunday but we have been fed positive yarns everyday....perhaps to keep our spirits up. Another concern is that should the Sunday bus leave then presumably it will be double booked. We have been assured that if this is the case they will run another bus. Again we can only wait and see.

PenquistaDeCorazon
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1062
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:50 am

Re: No Win for Chile

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:09 pm

patagoniax wrote:
PenquistaDeCorazon wrote:
At the risk of being labeled a trol my friend, I do not think reopening Dawson as an internment camp would gain any more political traction than reopening Auschwitz.
Since I knew you were watching, I threw you a bone. The reference to Dawson was allegorical, but merited. The demonstrated arrogance and self-destructive foolishness of the local population, subsidised for years at the swollen teat of government, reminds historians of the need for periodic correction of this sort of hubris, as well as a recounting of the measures that are taken for those corrections.

It was calculated that the amount of lost income for local residents in Natales would have paid for the less-subsidised heating gas increment for more than 27 years.

Chile is again showing its true colours, and the opportunity to observe these historic events first-hand has been extraordinary.
I agree.

Post Reply