running electrical in both 220 and 110?

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GOTI
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by GOTI » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:17 pm

patagoniax wrote:.


In the course of looking up solutions, reliability data, and whatnot for a wind turbine solution for your situation, I came upon some studies done in Holland -- certainly a windy place much of the time -- by a government agency we will charitably call the Dutch Patagoniax, or Captain Bringdown. Their findings, well, let's look at the numbers and the assumptions. Your specs called for smallish diametre blades so I will throw in the blade specs here as well, but with a note that the larger the blades, generally the better the performance, at least in this test. No surprises there. The best-performing solution here involved the largest diametre blades (sometimes bigger really is better).

Observation/assumption:

Average Dutch household consumes 3,400 kWh/year.

Average wind velocity in test area:

3.8 m/sec or about 8.5 mph

Sample products and annual production:


- "Ampair 600" (8,925 euro, 1.7 metre blade diametre ) : 245 kWh per year or an average real-world output of 28 watts. 14 of these wind turbines would be needed for the full electrical consumption of 3400 KWh for a year, not counting any conversion losses if battery storage, etc., were used. 14 such windmills would cost about 125,000 euro.

- "Airdolphin" (17,548 euro, 1.8 metre blade diametre) : 393 kWh per year or an average output of 44.8 watts. 9 such windmills would be required (about 158,000 euro).

- "WRE 060" (37,187 euro, 2.5 metre blade diametre) : 485 kWh per year or an average output of 55.4 watts. 7 such windmills would be required (260,000 euro).

- " Montana" (18,508 euro, 5 metre blade diametre) : 2,691 kWh per year or an average power output of 307 watts. 2 such windmills, 37,000 euro.


Origin of data - note that I just picked a few of the tested turbine models as representative of the turbine blade size ranges. Check the math, if need be.

http://kreeft.zeeland.nl/zeesterdoc/ZBI ... 1257_1.pdf
to Patagoniax> First, your report has proven my suspicions regarding whether a Wind generator will be a feasable task. Secondly, your report confirms my understanding of using a windmill that narrows choices to the larger blades of 5 metre plus, certainly a structure we prefer not to expose into our community scenery. Likewise, it would be even just as much a nuisance image to have multiple windmills in series along the hillside scene. Your figures of each windmill seems logical and gives cause for me to abandon this task. I will add comments after this to the subject of the fuel Generators and/ using Transformers to 50hZ and 60hZ.
When you try a task and it seem unlogical, try another: yup and stay happy.
GOTI
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by GOTI » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:07 pm

Kel wrote:I agree with what has been said above. But I understand your desire to have both voltages. I have a number of step-down transformers and they are a bit ugly scattered about the house. If you are wiring from scratch and money isn't an issue for you, it is possible (but not cheap) to have both types of power in your house. There are some people who live off-grid who have a separate 12 volt power circuit so they can run hyper-efficient 12 volt refrigerators and lighting. This saves a lot of power wastage in solar systems. You could do the same thing with a 110 circuit.

It is easy to convert from 240 VOLTS to 120 VOLTS with a step-down transformer. However, this doesn't affect the Hertz. It will still be 50 Hertz after going through the step-down transformer. You need to decide if this is really important to you. Most 120 Volt appliances will accept 50 Hertz; however, there are some exceptions. Clocks that use the Hertz will run slow on 50 Hertz. Electric motors will also run a bit slow. If you decide that the Hertz doesn't really matter, then you just need a large step-down transformer between the 240 volt power and the 120 volt circuit. Sizing this transformer is important. You can run almost anything in most houses using a 2000 Watt Step-Down transformer. The exception to this would be a vacuum cleaner. I would get a 3000 Watt Step-down transformer and then you will be able to run a 120 Volt vacuum cleaner. If you want to run power tools, then you might need a slightly bigger transformer. Most power tools draw less than 3000 Watts. But if you are running several at once, you would need a bigger transformer. The point is, you need to look at the things you want to use at the same time on the 110 Volt circuit and decide on the size of the transformer. Of course, you would need to bring down the receptacles, breaker box and breakers from the states. I would also bring down the Romex Wire as you can't buy it in Chile. I wired for Chilean power but I still imported all these things because I didn't like the wire available in Chile (its very hard for me to work with compared to American Romex Wire) Even with the import costs, it was still cheaper than buying the same diameter wire in Chile, most of which is made outside of Chile and goes through several middlemen prior to getting to you.

If you want perfection--ie perfect 120 Volt 60 Hertz Power, then a simple step-down transformer won't work. In this case you need a True-Sine-Wave invertor and a small 12-48 volt battery bank. What you do is use the 240 volt grid-power to power a Charger that keeps the battery bank charged at 100%. The True-sine-wave invertor takes the DC power from the battery bank and manufactures perfect 120 Volt 60 Hertz power. I would recommend an Outback Power Invertor (or several of them) http://www.outbackpower.com/products/sinewave_inverter/ In this manner you can get perfect 120 Volt 60 Hertz Power. In fact, if you want, you could get 3 phase power and run 3 phase motors from the States. This would apply if you wanted to set up a small factory or something.

A few technical points: Grid power in the states has 3-wire 240 Volts coming off the power pole. This is 2 hot wires and one common wire. In the Breaker-Box, the power is split. The common wire is down the middle and a hot wire is on each side. From the hot-wire to the common wire is 120 Volts, but from hot to hot is 240 volts. This allows you to use a 240 volt Dryer, for example, in your home.

In Chile, the 240 volts is on 2 wires. A friend once told me that this is a hot wire to the common wire. He said that there is actually 480 volts (Hot-to-Hot) at the transformer but I've never climbed up a pole to verify this. What comes down two the house is a single hot to common circuit. This sounds esotaric but is important if you bring a generator down from the states. The 240 coming out of the generator is wired slightly different than the 240 in chile. Also, if you are accustomed to an American breaker box, the Chilean breaker box will be a mystery until you know this fact.

PM me if you want to know more...

Kel
Hello Kel, your data is very interesting and confirms what I anticipated will be a troublesome solution in working with transformers to satisfy 50Hz and 60Hz alternatives. Your technical points leave me to think of my last alternative to getting a multi-task generator, that being a military type generator available and described below>
Libby Corporation, MEP-005A, Diesel engine generator set. The generators serial number is RZ50955 and its has 61 hours of operation. Current type: AC. AC wattage rating: 30.0 kilowatts. Frequency rating: 50.0 hertz minimum and 60.0 hertz maximum. Phase: Three. Line to line voltage in volts: 208.0 and 416.0. Line to neutral voltage in volts: 120.0 and 240.0. Power factor in percent: 80.0. Excitor type: Separately excited. Excitor included. Ambient temperature in degrees Celsius: -31.7 and 51.7. Temperature rise rating in degrees Celsius for continuous operation: 50.0. Prime mover cooling medium: Liquid. Cooling method: Radiator. Prime mover starting method: Electric motor. Cranking voltage in volts: 24.0. Mounting type: Skid. Overall length: 80.000 inches nominal. Overall width: 36.000 inches nominal. Overall height: 36.000 inches nominal. Radio interference suppression included. Housing type: Inclosed. Inclosure type: Fully inclosed. Maximum weight capacity: 3500.000 lbs. Cubic measure: 60.000 cubic feet.
Now I must see if can be shipped to S.A.
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by Kel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:30 am

The above discussion of wind turbins and generators makes it necessary for me to ask a question: Is this for an on or off grid system? I have been assuming you were on the grid.

If you are using 110 Volt tools and appliances occasionally, a generator will meet your needs. You can go and start it when you need power. However, if you really want a permanent 110 volt, 60 Hertz circuit in your house that will be operational at all hours of the day and night, you should install a permanent 110 Volt 60 Hertz Invertor (or two). It sounds more difficult than a generator but really isn't. I have a propane back-up generator as well as invertors and I'd take the invertors any day. They are reliable and require almost no maintainance. On-the-other-hand, my generator must be exercised and maintained. The oil must be changed every 50 hours, etc. And unless you are a good mechanic, you will need to haul it into town to get it repaired. If you have a gas or diesel generator (as opposed to propane), the fuel can get old if left to set a long time and turn the fuel lines into chapstick. Unless you have a "pull-start" generator, it still has a battery for the starter that will need to be changed occasionally. Its a reasonable back-up solution but not a great "full-time" power solution.

The Hertz of the generator is usually determined by how fast the generator motor is spinning. It is not necessarily a one-to-one ratio but the two are directly related. That is why there is a range of Hertz listed in the specs of a generator: "50 - 60 Hertz". That does NOT mean you can get 50 or 60 hertz at your desire. It is difficult for a motor to maintain a constant rotational speed. As different loads are applied, you will hear the generator slow down a small amount or speed up when the load is removed. The govorner will try to maintain the rotational speed (and hence the hertz) in a specific range. But this is a lot different than being able to get both a 110 Volt 60 Hertz power and 220Volt 50 hertz power at the same time. You will have to adjust the governor for either 50 or 60 hertz and then live with it on both the 110 side and the 220 side. On a generator designed for 60 hertz, if you turn down the speed to 50 Hertz, you will decrease the power output of the generator.

PX is right, in terms of sizing a step-down transformer. If you read my post closely, you will see that I recommended a step-down transformer of 3000 watts for most household items but suggested larger than 3000 Watts if you wanted to run a vacuum cleaner.
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by Kel » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:31 pm

PX: I agree completely.

In Chile, if you look at the wiring used it is very small diameter. They can get away with that because they are using 240 volts. Since Watts = Amps * Volts, a 240 volt system will use half the amps to get the same number of watts. Thus for the same wattage, the wire can be a lot smaller since wire size is determined by amperage. If you wire for 110 Volts, you must use much larger diameter wire. In the states 12 guage is usually used for receptacle circuits and 14 guage for lighting circuits. 10 Guage should be used for 110Volt wall heaters and water heaters or some types of machinery. So if you want to wire for 110 volts, this is the guage you should use (with matching breakers). You can't use the small diameter chilean wire for 110 Volt circuits. Good point.

I used the above guages even though I run 240 volts and 50 Hertz. This allows me to use a 3000 Watt transformer if I want to. I would suggest that anyone wiring from scratch use wire larger than is standard in Chile because it is pathetically small. Our friend is wiring from scratch and he will benefit from this discussion.

You cannot find this guage wire in Sodimac or most small electric stores.
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by Kel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:46 am

PX: My suggestion to use a 3000 watt Step down transformer was not meant for somebody renting a cabana with marginal wiring. :D It was directed at the person who asked the original question about building a house from scratch and wiring it with an extra 110 Volt Circuit. This 110 Volt circuit has to be powered by something (a step-down transformer or an invertor installed before the breaker). It has to be wired properly. Of course! The correct guage and breakers have to be used--clearly! But it can be done right and it doesn't require using a generator, or a wind turbin. It is not irresponsible in this setting.

I agree that it would be irresponsible to use a huge transformer on marginal wiring but that is not the issue here. This person is asking how to do this from scratch in new construction. In this setting it would be poor planning to use a transformer that is too small as its fuse would be burning up quite often. From your experience, what ballpark size transformer would you suggest be used for his specific application? (Powering a 110 Volt circuit in a new house with whatever size wire you want.) :D
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by MikieO » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:38 pm

I haven't bothered to read the entire thread but the gist of what Px said is correct. I have however, done what the original poster asked about and
have found it to be a very valuable feature in my house.
While we were in the framing stages (back in 09) of my place in region V I told my Chilean electrician to get an upgraded drop from the pole (25amps instead
of the usual 16Amps) it had to be done twice and we paid more but there yah go, it's Chile. :roll: I brought a 4kw step up/step down transformer in my hand
luggage (44lbs) and had the electrician size a dedicated outlet in the garage to service it. I also brought (from Home Depot) a couple of boxes of
outlets, nail on boxes, a 6X6 junction box, twist connectors and one 20amp heavy duty switch.
I had him run the 220v through the US switch to the transformer outlet below. From there, I used 12Ga locally sourced romex (sort of...it has no ground)
that I ran myself, (I am a GC)
Long story short, I have a US outlet in every room in the house and several in the garage. Trying to find certain things in Chile takes so long that it just isn't
worth it. I was able to do a better job, faster, using US voltage tools than had I just tried to muddle through in the Chilean way.
Example:
I brought a silent Panasonic duct fan and put it in the attic with some ductwork for redistribution of the Bosca's heat, taken from the peak in
the living room to the bedrooms etc in the other end of the house. Works beautifully. Chilean equivalent? sounds like a jet engine.
IMO one can simply produce a higher standard home with this option, it certainly worked for me and that's what I do for a living. :mrgreen:

BTW, the TSA gal who looked askance at the transformer.... priceless. The Chilean customs guy? Another one.... :roll:
I know I could have gotten one in Chile but in the US, a click of a mouse and it was delivered. I regard time spent on site
as the equivalent of diver's "bottom time", use it to max effect.
“Now, a lifetime of experience has left me bitter and cynical.” ~ Calvin & Hobbes

Kel
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by Kel » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:51 pm

MikieO wrote:I haven't bothered to read the entire thread but the gist of what Px said is correct. I have however, done what the original poster asked about and
have found it to be a very valuable feature in my house.
While we were in the framing stages (back in 09) of my place in region V I told my Chilean electrician to get an upgraded drop from the pole (25amps instead
of the usual 16Amps) it had to be done twice and we paid more but there yah go, it's Chile. :roll: I brought a 4kw step up/step down transformer in my hand
luggage (44lbs) and had the electrician size a dedicated outlet in the garage to service it. I also brought (from Home Depot) a couple of boxes of
outlets, nail on boxes, a 6X6 junction box, twist connectors and one 20amp heavy duty switch.
I had him run the 220v through the US switch to the transformer outlet below. From there, I used 12Ga locally sourced romex (sort of...it has no ground)
that I ran myself, (I am a GC)
Long story short, I have a US outlet in every room in the house and several in the garage. Trying to find certain things in Chile takes so long that it just isn't
worth it. I was able to do a better job, faster, using US voltage tools than had I just tried to muddle through in the Chilean way.
Example:
I brought a silent Panasonic duct fan and put it in the attic with some ductwork for redistribution of the Bosca's heat, taken from the peak in
the living room to the bedrooms etc in the other end of the house. Works beautifully. Chilean equivalent? sounds like a jet engine.
IMO one can simply produce a higher standard home with this option, it certainly worked for me and that's what I do for a living. :mrgreen:

BTW, the TSA gal who looked askance at the transformer.... priceless. The Chilean customs guy? Another one.... :roll:
I know I could have gotten one in Chile but in the US, a click of a mouse and it was delivered. I regard time spent on site
as the equivalent of diver's "bottom time", use it to max effect.
:!: Yes! Thats how it should be done :!: You Said it with perfect Clarity :!:

:!: Thanks :!:
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by GOTI » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:14 pm

Kel wrote:
MikieO wrote:I haven't bothered to read the entire thread but the gist of what Px said is correct. I have however, done what the original poster asked about and
have found it to be a very valuable feature in my house.
While we were in the framing stages (back in 09) of my place in region V I told my Chilean electrician to get an upgraded drop from the pole (25amps instead
of the usual 16Amps) it had to be done twice and we paid more but there yah go, it's Chile. :roll: I brought a 4kw step up/step down transformer in my hand
luggage (44lbs) and had the electrician size a dedicated outlet in the garage to service it. I also brought (from Home Depot) a couple of boxes of
outlets, nail on boxes, a 6X6 junction box, twist connectors and one 20amp heavy duty switch.
I had him run the 220v through the US switch to the transformer outlet below. From there, I used 12Ga locally sourced romex (sort of...it has no ground)
that I ran myself, (I am a GC)
Long story short, I have a US outlet in every room in the house and several in the garage. Trying to find certain things in Chile takes so long that it just isn't
worth it. I was able to do a better job, faster, using US voltage tools than had I just tried to muddle through in the Chilean way.
Example:
I brought a silent Panasonic duct fan and put it in the attic with some ductwork for redistribution of the Bosca's heat, taken from the peak in
the living room to the bedrooms etc in the other end of the house. Works beautifully. Chilean equivalent? sounds like a jet engine.
IMO one can simply produce a higher standard home with this option, it certainly worked for me and that's what I do for a living. :mrgreen:

BTW, the TSA gal who looked askance at the transformer.... priceless. The Chilean customs guy? Another one.... :roll:
I know I could have gotten one in Chile but in the US, a click of a mouse and it was delivered. I regard time spent on site
as the equivalent of diver's "bottom time", use it to max effect.
:!: Yes! Thats how it should be done :!: You Said it with perfect Clarity :!:

:!: Thanks :!:
GREETINGS TO KEL/PATAGONIAX/ AND MIKEIO >> Sorry for my late followup in this forum...been in travel. I appreciate the details of each of your input and speculation on my goal. Actually, MikeiO was closest to my objectives. First, I explain my Site setting and services available: My tract of land is approximately 600 meters from a public service line with enough power to service my proposed buildings; the other 3-sides of adjoining land are public mountain-side land. There is a closer retired native lady neighbor with an insufficient two-line extension from primary service but only enough to carry 15amp max. Secondly, I plan to build three structures on my vacant Land tract: House, machine shop, and utility garden/studio (wife's). The house to have all new wiring with some leads for AC 110 60hZ to operate some U.S. appliances too expensive to replace /A machine shop to operate a wood planer - 8.5 hp Milwaukee Drill press (12amp) / and a Miller Arc-Welder and Compressor (60hZ). / the Studio for smaller compressor-- marble grinder and multiple outlets (50 hz) standard Chilean products. To add, power to operate a well pump to elevate 60 ft/19m to storage tank 25ft/85m away from well crevice (quebrada). The Generator Plant I described herein meets most of those needs. Third, to bring in the necessary public service power, I would have to have proper gauged conduit and transformer. At this time, I have no estimate of cost that it would take and schedule-time for installation. The Generator would be ready upon my arrival. Therein, is my Task. It looks as if I am trying to develop a little LAND-OF-OZ (anyone have guinea hens :?:
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MikieO
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by MikieO » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:48 pm

AWG 12 in conduit: 32 amps
outside of conduit, in air 40 amps
While I'll take it as true, those specs do seem sketchy, I am surprised.
I noted that my 25Amp service drop was in 12 Ga though, go figure.
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by HybridAmbassador » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:55 pm

Why is low Amperage used in Chile house electricity? My house came with 100 Amp wired electrical system.. The older US house were rigged with 60 Amp,
the newer houses has 100 Amp or even 200 Amps. I remember that in Japan,
a normal house can be had with 20 Amp~65 Amps..
So why does Chileans house construction use such low Amperage? I believe it is so easy to overload the circuit with a such puny low Amperage?
HybridAmbassador. Toyota Hybrid system for helping climate change.

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MikieO
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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by MikieO » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:38 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote:Why is low Amperage used in Chile house electricity? My house came with 100 Amp wired electrical system.. The older US house were rigged with 60 Amp,
the newer houses has 100 Amp or even 200 Amps. I remember that in Japan,
a normal house can be had with 20 Amp~65 Amps..
So why does Chileans house construction use such low Amperage? I believe it is so easy to overload the circuit with a such puny low Amperage?
You now hail from SF or Japan?
The standard US drop/panel in my experience is now 200Amp.
In my more "power hungry" clients' homes I am regularly seeing 400Amp services.
Why? It costs money to buy the gear to use those panels, wire the home etc.
Why 16Amps? Chileans don't usually have the $ so 16 Amps, two breakers is the norm,
I mean really, this afternoon I was packing and saw that I have 4 smoke alarms....
Standard? Why am I bringing them from Home Depot? Because Sodimac didn't have
them in store (YMMV) and it's more efficient to just bring them!
There's more to const in Chile than just shitty work.
“Now, a lifetime of experience has left me bitter and cynical.” ~ Calvin & Hobbes

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Re: running electrical in both 220 and 110?

Post by MikieO » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:01 pm

Aha, thankee! I noticed nobody nodding when I said "Romex". No matter, I think that for now I am past that.
I'd imagine that NW diver will have a lot of fun with his PV setup, conductors and DC unless he is flying in a PV crew too.
One can just see how that could turn out, from the missing PV panels down to the undersized conductors.... :roll:
“Now, a lifetime of experience has left me bitter and cynical.” ~ Calvin & Hobbes

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