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RWS
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Post by RWS » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:41 am

Excalibur wrote:. . . . in the ever more fascist . . . European Union, one cannot even build a dog house, in his property, without government permission and getting into trouble . . . .
In my own lifetime (and I'm not that old), I've seen this change from liberty to intolerance in the United States: in more and more states, the situation is now much as in the EU. Just an illustration of much of the hope that Chile holds for me: freedom.

Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:35 pm

RWS, I am sorry to tell you that this is not happening by accident but
by design, and it is meant to happen in the whole world eventually,
including Chile, ( without forgetting recent history, of course ) unless people wake up.
It is just happening faster in some places compared to others.

However, going back to the original subject, it is a sad fact, that one of
the 1000s of different ways in which the government reminds people
how free they really are, in the EU, is that people will be treated like criminals even for
something as absurd as building a dog house in their very home and I was wondering
if this level of absurdities applies to Chile as well, or not.

I like to think that whilst it might be the case in large cities, there should
be a far larger level of freedom and independence away from them, but
of course, I might be wrong . . .

RWS
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Post by RWS » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:15 pm

Excalibur wrote:. . . [T]his is not happening by accident but
by design, and it is meant to happen in the whole world eventually,
including Chile . . . .
'Sounds diabolic.

From what I've seen, construction in towns is ill-regulated, construction in the countryside, not at all. But those are simply the observations of a visitor. I'd leave the definitive word to a knowledgeable resident, like TomBrad.

Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:09 pm

Thanks RWS,

don't underestimate the power of observation (. . . or was it Playstation ? ;-) ), it can go a long way towards figuring out how
things work . . . but I leave the technical side of the issue to the realexperts . . .as you have wisely suggested :-)

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tombrad2
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Post by tombrad2 » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:47 pm

There are a lot of regulating rules on construction in Chile, plus the "plan regulador municipal" who -theoretically- rules and limits many aspect of what you can build in your own property. This is theory, in practice, Chile is still a pretty free country where you may ignore most of regulations if you wish so, provided you are not making a very big project. Even big projects and even goverment constructions do not comply with their own regulations.

I builded my home disregarding any kind of regulation and taking the risks by my own criteria, in theory municipality has the power to order the demolition of my home, but all homes in my neighborhood are construted this way so is nearly impossible they do it. I had never asked a permission to the modifies on my home that turned the original 50 sq meters constructer to over 150, this way my home is "legally" only 50 sq meters and tax excempt as long as the tax man realizes the change, has been over 7 years this way and I hope they dont realize until the remaining 70 years to come.

Goverment has tried during decades to "regularize" constructions with many laws with the final purpose to collect more taxes, but they hasnt been able to sucess, I hope they never will. Chile is a very legalist country (for latin standards at least) but in the real life our latino genetics is still strong and we remain as a pretty anarchic and free society.
Arica in a nutshell (updated) at :
http://tomas-bradanovic.blogspot.com/

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mlightheart
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Post by mlightheart » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:30 pm

tombrad2 wrote:... but in the real life our latino genetics is still strong and we remain as a pretty anarchic and free society.
May it continue to be so.

Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:48 am

Tombrad2 wrote:

Quote

Goverment has tried during decades to "regularize" constructions with many laws with the final purpose to collect more taxes, but they hasnt been able to sucess, I hope they never will. Chile is a very legalist country (for latin standards at least) but in the real life our latino genetics is still strong and we remain as a pretty anarchic and free society.

Unquote

Thanks Tombrad2, I'll drink to that, and I wish you the best of luck formuch longer than 70 years.

This however highlights a doubt/fear of mine, the "freedom", is not therebecause it is the right of people to have it ( of course within the limits of not causing real problems to others ), but only because the government doesn't have the manpower, or other resources, to physically enforce all of its bureacracy and regulations, otherwise they would, like everywhere else.

But it is nevertheless good to know that there are still true pockets of freedom available, however they might come.

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Post by admin » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:04 am

>Should one decide to self build, and one owns the land, are there any restrictions regarding using trees, or other building materials, ( like stones etc. ) from the property one owns, other than getting a permit/project approved by whatever local authority is looking after the area ?

There are forestry restrictions for example on how many trees you cut and when across Chile. You typically need a forestry plan for your property. This is to stop people from just clear cutting their property. That said, if for example you have property with a stand of non-native pine trees that where basically planted to be cut, then it is no big deal. However, if you have big property with a bunch of 2,000 year old growth trees, then things get a little trickier.

Really in a lot of rural areas, they simply don't care; the management plans are more geared at keeping the big logging companies in check.

The building permits however have nothing to do with your source of materials.

RWS
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Post by RWS » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:08 am

Excalibur wrote:. . . . [A] doubt/fear of mine [is that] . . . "freedom" . . . is not therebecause it is the right of people to have it . . . , but only because the government doesn't have the manpower, or other resources, to physically enforce all of its bureacracy and regulations, otherwise they would, like everywhere else. . . .
A vast generalization (speaking as one with many years' experience as an international lawyer and, earlier, an historian): an underlying theory of the common-law tradition (found in nearly all English-speaking lands) is that law creates restrictions limited to the content of the specific law; an underlying theory of the code-law tradition (found in nearly all Spanish-speaking lands) is that law creates liberties afforded citizens within the bounds of the specific law itself; there are sound (and very interesting, if complex) reasons for the nearly mirror divergences of these two traditions. In short: in England, that which is not specifically forbidden is allowable; in Chile, that which is not specifically allowable is forbidden.

Though I've not read the current Chilean constitution, I'm reliably informed that the glory of Pinochet's reforms was an effort to change that tradition restrictive of individual liberties (and of initiative and drive as well) to -- ironically -- a governance in which the institution would serve the citizen and not constrain him, save as necessary to preserve the liberties of others. Until that theory becomes an unconsciously accepted part of Chilean life (an area in which the immigration of respectful folk such as ourselves can help, I think), though, the best we can hope for in everyday life is the absence of governmental energy.

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Post by Excalibur » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:31 pm

Admin wrote:

Quote

There are forestry restrictions for example on how many trees you cut and when across Chile. You typically need a forestry plan for your property. This is to stop people from just clear cutting their property. That said, if for example you have property with a stand of non-native pine trees that where basically planted to be cut, then it is no big deal. However, if you have big property with a bunch of 2,000 year old growth trees, then things get a little trickier.

Really in a lot of rural areas, they simply don't care; the management plans are more geared at keeping the big logging companies in check.

The building permits however have nothing to do with your source of materials.

Unquote

Thanks,

that is fair enough, and I have no intention of creating a wasteland.
I would be the first to ensure that no tree is cut down, especially old
growth ones, towards which I have a great deal of spiritual respect.

My "logging" would be restricted to what is strictly necessary to build
on site a log house, and would affect only a limited amount of trees
and not very old ones, purely for the reason that one needs to have a house were to live, and using locally available materials is the most
logical, convenient and environmentally friendly ( no need for long distance transport of lots of building stuff ) option, and extra trees can be replanted to compensate for the original loss.

Whilst abusing the environment would never be an issue with me, I
understand the need to ensure that others, with very different intentions,
be kept in check, so that is fair ( and even necessary ) and I have no problems with it.

Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:49 pm

RWS wrote:

Quote

Though I've not read the current Chilean constitution, I'm reliably informed that the glory of Pinochet's reforms was an effort to change that tradition restrictive of individual liberties (and of initiative and drive as well) to -- ironically -- a governance in which the institution would serve the citizen and not constrain him, save as necessary to preserve the liberties of others. Until that theory becomes an unconsciously accepted part of Chilean life (an area in which the immigration of respectful folk such as ourselves can help, I think), though, the best we can hope for in everyday life is the absence of governmental energy.

Unquote.

" Ironically ", sounds like the understatement of the century ;-)

Personally I follow as much as practically possible, within the constraintsof whichever place I find myself living in, a law which states:

Anyone can do whatever he or she likes, as long as he or she does notinfringe upon the liberties, lives and properties of others, including Mother Nature, in all of its glorious and magnificent aspects.

When I will have my own Banana Republic, ( with or without bananas )this will be the applicable law. :-)

In the meantime, due to the reality gap with the " real world ", I welcomeand enjoy any freedom that comes from the " absence of governmental
energy " ;-)

RWS
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Post by RWS » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:07 pm

Excalibur wrote:. . . . Anyone can do whatever he or she likes, as long as he or she does notinfringe upon the liberties, lives and properties of others, including . . . Nature . . . .
This would be a wonderful place! Once you've established the commonwealth, do, please, let me know, dear Excalibur: I'd catch the first ship headed there.

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