The New Constitution

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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:48 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:36 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm
I have a question, where is the legitimacy in this process ? Yes people think they are having a say, but not many want to actually excercise that right it seems. If we are talking of percentages of the population that supported the Pinochet Constitution vs the what's going on now, the percentages are not that different.

Any argument that the Pinochet constitution wasn't legitimate frankly doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes he was a dictator but probably more than 30 or 40 percent of the population still approved of what he was doing, so while not directly "democratically" able to be shown, it was still, in overall percentage terms, more than the support numbers we are seeing for the people that are writing this constitution and probably even beats the numbers that choose for it to be changed. (50 percent voted and 80 percent of that approved, so about 40 percent of population)

Or are my calculations wrong ?

Where indeed is the legitimacy ? There is and never has been a majority of the population that have formally supported this, less than 40 percent could be bothered to choose people to draft it.
50.98% of registered voters showed up to vote on the Apruebo/Rechazo plebiscite, which seems to be a record turnout number here in Chile. 78.31% of voters voted for a new constitution. I guess getting 78% of votes on a record-setting election in terms of turnout is as legitimate as it gets.
I suppose so, but as an overall percentage of population, theres still 60 odd percentage that oppose it or don’t care .
I just find it a bit strange that so many act this is like what everyone in Chile wanted .
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

GAminer
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by GAminer » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:08 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:48 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:36 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm
I have a question, where is the legitimacy in this process ? Yes people think they are having a say, but not many want to actually excercise that right it seems. If we are talking of percentages of the population that supported the Pinochet Constitution vs the what's going on now, the percentages are not that different.

Any argument that the Pinochet constitution wasn't legitimate frankly doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes he was a dictator but probably more than 30 or 40 percent of the population still approved of what he was doing, so while not directly "democratically" able to be shown, it was still, in overall percentage terms, more than the support numbers we are seeing for the people that are writing this constitution and probably even beats the numbers that choose for it to be changed. (50 percent voted and 80 percent of that approved, so about 40 percent of population)

Or are my calculations wrong ?

Where indeed is the legitimacy ? There is and never has been a majority of the population that have formally supported this, less than 40 percent could be bothered to choose people to draft it.
50.98% of registered voters showed up to vote on the Apruebo/Rechazo plebiscite, which seems to be a record turnout number here in Chile. 78.31% of voters voted for a new constitution. I guess getting 78% of votes on a record-setting election in terms of turnout is as legitimate as it gets.
I suppose so, but as an overall percentage of population, theres still 60 odd percentage that oppose it or don’t care .
I just find it a bit strange that so many act this is like what everyone in Chile wanted .
Then they should have voted when they had a chance.

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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:26 pm

GAminer wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:08 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:48 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:36 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm
I have a question, where is the legitimacy in this process ? Yes people think they are having a say, but not many want to actually excercise that right it seems. If we are talking of percentages of the population that supported the Pinochet Constitution vs the what's going on now, the percentages are not that different.

Any argument that the Pinochet constitution wasn't legitimate frankly doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes he was a dictator but probably more than 30 or 40 percent of the population still approved of what he was doing, so while not directly "democratically" able to be shown, it was still, in overall percentage terms, more than the support numbers we are seeing for the people that are writing this constitution and probably even beats the numbers that choose for it to be changed. (50 percent voted and 80 percent of that approved, so about 40 percent of population)

Or are my calculations wrong ?

Where indeed is the legitimacy ? There is and never has been a majority of the population that have formally supported this, less than 40 percent could be bothered to choose people to draft it.
50.98% of registered voters showed up to vote on the Apruebo/Rechazo plebiscite, which seems to be a record turnout number here in Chile. 78.31% of voters voted for a new constitution. I guess getting 78% of votes on a record-setting election in terms of turnout is as legitimate as it gets.
I suppose so, but as an overall percentage of population, theres still 60 odd percentage that oppose it or don’t care .
I just find it a bit strange that so many act this is like what everyone in Chile wanted .
Then they should have voted when they had a chance.
Or they don't care either way, because they just want to live their lives and don't believe that anything that happens in drafting a constitution will change anything or they just din't want to participate in some futile process that will be manipulated and driven by those that make the most noise.

That they didn't vote is not my point.

I am just questioning the whole narrative of a process that claims to be representing everyone, "this is what the whole country wants", blah blah blah, "this is what will fix all the problems in society"

The 50 percent that didn't vote are either uninformed or very wise, I am not quite sure which, probably a mix of both.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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tiagoabner
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:53 pm

I understand where you're coming from, but what would be an alternative? I guess Chile could restore mandatory voting, but other than that, I don't see election turnovers rising anytime soon.
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fraggle092
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:20 pm

Don't see what the problem is with mandatory voting, it was only repealed in 2012.
I didn't vote last time round, as to me that was consistent with my Rechazo vote last year.
If voting were mandatory, I would just have spoiled the Ballot paper.

Here where Chile's heading...
.
Renacionalizar el cobre.jpg
.
And if they are successful, here's how it will end at some stage in the distant future.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:02 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:53 pm
I understand where you're coming from, but what would be an alternative? I guess Chile could restore mandatory voting, but other than that, I don't see election turnovers rising anytime soon.
No,I guess you right, I am just pondering really.

My ideal alternative would have been that it never got to the point of choosing to have new constitution.
After what?
All of two weeks of violent protests, when no one was actually demanding a new constitution.

Or, that if it had to happen, it would have been done by some morally outstanding, educated citizens that could come up with something that wasn't based around political correctness, agendas , and populism of the day.

But whatever, if 40 percent of the population think this provide all the solutions to all that is wrong in society, and think this will somehow magically make it all better and everyone will be better off, well so be it.
.
I want to get to know the other 50 percent of the population better
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:18 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:53 pm
I understand where you're coming from, but what would be an alternative? I guess Chile could restore mandatory voting, but other than that, I don't see election turnovers rising anytime soon.
There is a bill in congress trying to reinstate mandatory voting right now.

which just screwing around with that leads to political manipulation. when the numbers are in their favor, then the want to implement mandatory voting. when it is not, then they are against it.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:20 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:02 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:53 pm
I understand where you're coming from, but what would be an alternative? I guess Chile could restore mandatory voting, but other than that, I don't see election turnovers rising anytime soon.
No,I guess you right, I am just pondering really.

My ideal alternative would have been that it never got to the point of choosing to have new constitution.
After what?
All of two weeks of violent protests, when no one was actually demanding a new constitution.

Or, that if it had to happen, it would have been done by some morally outstanding, educated citizens that could come up with something that wasn't based around political correctness, agendas , and populism of the day.

But whatever, if 40 percent of the population think this provide all the solutions to all that is wrong in society, and think this will somehow magically make it all better and everyone will be better off, well so be it.
.
I want to get to know the other 50 percent of the population better
The left is going to own it, one way or the other, if all the 🦄 and 🌈 don't magically show-up the day after a new constitution goes in to effect.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:37 pm

admin wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:20 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:02 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:53 pm
I understand where you're coming from, but what would be an alternative? I guess Chile could restore mandatory voting, but other than that, I don't see election turnovers rising anytime soon.
No,I guess you right, I am just pondering really.

My ideal alternative would have been that it never got to the point of choosing to have new constitution.
After what?
All of two weeks of violent protests, when no one was actually demanding a new constitution.

Or, that if it had to happen, it would have been done by some morally outstanding, educated citizens that could come up with something that wasn't based around political correctness, agendas , and populism of the day.

But whatever, if 40 percent of the population think this provide all the solutions to all that is wrong in society, and think this will somehow magically make it all better and everyone will be better off, well so be it.
.
I want to get to know the other 50 percent of the population better
The left is going to own it, one way or the other, if all the 🦄 and 🌈 don't magically show-up the day after a new constitution goes in to effect.

Yes and when Daniel Jadue becomes prez everyone will be happy, there will be no inequality, no sexism, no racism, no manipulation and stealing from the poor, the capitalists will be put in their place, it really will be wonderful.
Can’t wait.

He seems like he has all the bright ideas, so wise, well he is a sociologist and architect I guess, and a working class background too, that helps. He’s for righting the wrongs.

I just find it so plainly boring sometimes, not so much tragic, although there is a little of that, but it’s just so much of the same old same old, has been literally for centuries I guess , probably millennia.

I find reading over some Adam Smith sometimes helps .

“The man of system, on the contrary, is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamoured with the supposed beauty of his own ideal plan of government, that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it. He goes on to establish it completely and in all its parts, without any regard either to the great interests, or to the strong prejudices which may oppose it. He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as the hand arranges the different pieces upon a chess–board. He does not consider that the pieces upon the chess–board have no other principle of motion besides that which the hand impresses upon them; but that, in the great chess–board of human society, every single piece has a principle of motion of its own, altogether different from that which the legislature might chuse to impress upon it.”
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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tiagoabner
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:56 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:37 pm

Yes and when Daniel Jadue becomes prez everyone will be happy, there will be no (...) stealing from the poor
Interestingly, Jadue is currently being investigated by PDI for grafting, as his lawyer allegedly negotiated bribes on his behalf with a lamp post company, as well as negotiating prices for public lightning over four times what Providencia paid for the same type of LED lightning. Presumably, the markup will lead to some kind of kickback to those who authorized the inflated contract. This is all under investigation at this time, and there are no formal charges. All people involved are presumed innocent until sentenced.

Source: https://www.pauta.cl/nacional/luminaria ... om-abogado
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:05 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:56 pm
41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:37 pm

Yes and when Daniel Jadue becomes prez everyone will be happy, there will be no (...) stealing from the poor
Interestingly, Jadue is currently being investigated by PDI for grafting, as his lawyer allegedly negotiated bribes on his behalf with a lamp post company, as well as negotiating prices for public lightning over four times what Providencia paid for the same type of LED lightning. Presumably, the markup will lead to some kind of kickback to those who authorized the inflated contract. This is all under investigation at this time, and there are no formal charges. All people involved are presumed innocent until sentenced.

Source: https://www.pauta.cl/nacional/luminaria ... om-abogado
No surprise there really.

I read some of his Bloomberg interview in DF earlier on, the guy comes across as more of the same old same old, like a tired old dog with no new tricks to actually sort things out, just resentment and some sort of social justice warrior out to settle scores.

Just my impression anyway

Chile deserves better than this, or who knows?
maybe they don’t?
Countries end up with the politicians they deserve, so the saying goes.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:32 pm

here is the thing about the constitution body.

they are a technical committee setup by congress to perform a task, draft a constitution.

they have NO constitutional legitimacy or standing beyond that.

so these morons claiming they have some mandate from "el Pueblo" is just bullshit.

notice this all came up the day after Jadue was in the 9th region, telling the forestry companies that they need to pay the mapuche because the chilean government did not have the authority to give them that land.
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