The New Constitution

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Jamers41
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by Jamers41 » Mon May 24, 2021 1:02 pm

admin wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 3:59 pm
Jamers41 wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 2:28 pm
mem wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm
I am a big fan of the super majority 2/3 requirement to admit amendments.

I also think there are a lot of conservatives buried in the independents. This constitution should really reflect the majority as best as can be expected. Are there really more leftists or are they merely the loudest of the fringe? When there isnt peer pressure where will more of chileans lean, left or right? We know what each side would have us believe but I think reality may be very surprising

The rejection of the right and left parties is clear and a good thing. When it comes to hashing out the new constitution I think the indies will very clearly support where they are ideologically regardless of their party affiliation and the super majority requirement will be an excellent sanity check
A lot of conservatives buried in the independents? Did you look at their official "proposals" or statements provided to Servel before the election? Have you read or seen any of the elected members' statements post election? I did, and would definitely disagree with the idea of "a lot". A few probably, I remember reading one younger girl responding to a question by saying that she would consult with advisors (good for her), but there are definitely some real crackpots in there too. I read one lady advocating for "taking over" the Banco Central "for the workers" because it's "absurd how they define monetary policy only in favor of the business class" or something along those lines.

Is there at least 1/3 of the votes available to block any really wacko or controversial proposals? Probably.....if you assume that there are a few independents plus a few of the old "center left" votes that would vote with the right. But a majority of those independents definitely have leftist ink to spill on this new Constitution.......that said, I believe that a constitution doesn't have a lot of teeth if you don't fund it, so I'm not sure how much would change anyway.
I think you are missing the point.

If you are a communist party member in Chile: YOU ARE RICH!!!

really really rich. Like you are the 1%.

In los condes, you will have a communist party member living in the same building as a UDI politician, and niether of them have a fucking clue about really what is going on with little people, and they don't give a dam. Even if they once did, now they don't give a shit.

all the spectrum in between is the same. fucking "socialist party" member simply translates to " I have not figured out how rip-off the country yet to retire".
And? I responded to a comment about the nature of the independents, specifically the ones elected to the constitutional assembly. I think most of the forum here knows about how registered political party members live.

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Space Cat
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by Space Cat » Mon May 24, 2021 1:25 pm

admin wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 7:38 pm
it is also a the source of a lot of the hysteria in the foreign media, mostly American, about 'oh my god the lefties won, we are all going to die'. They just don't know how to digest the idea that there can be more than two sides of anything political. They keep trying to super imposed American bullshit on Chile.
The funny thing that the US "left' isn't even left, they have two right-wing parties there but one is a bit more "socially progressive". The Democrats are somewhere near Lavín in policies.

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Space Cat
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by Space Cat » Mon May 24, 2021 1:35 pm

admin wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 2:11 pm
one thing to point out, the large amount of people elected that do not come from the rich santiago neighborhoods or the political traditional families in Santiago.

also there is a fairly big number that are from outside Santiago. That is something generally not reflect in the make-up of congress.
Yeah, that's the best part – the assembly may have some freaks here and there but it finally looks more or less like the country itself. Daniel Matamala wrote an excellent piece about the elite's snobbery on that matter:
Los 27 constituyentes de la Lista del Pueblo, tal como los demás independientes y representantes de pueblos originarios, surgen de un Chile que se organizó mucho antes de octubre. Los nuevos constituyentes son una socióloga dedicada al problema de la vivienda en Valparaíso. Una trabajadora social feminista de Curicó. Un paciente de leucemia. Una enfermera dedicada a la protección de personas en situación de calle en Chiguayante. Un evangélico que trabaja en organizaciones solidarias. Una científica experta en energías renovables. Un activista por la defensa del río Ñuble. Una dueña de casa sobreviviente de un cáncer de mamas. Una transportista escolar que colabora en ollas comunes. Una profesora de historia de Tocopilla que defiende a mujeres vulneradas. Una chilota egresada de Derecho que levanta la bandera de la regionalización.

Se apellidan Rivera y Henríquez, González y Bravo, Pérez y Woldarsky. Hay abogados y matronas; profesores y estudiantes; empresarios y machis; agricultores y ajedrecistas; científicos y filósofos; actores, dirigentes indígenas y dueñas de casa. La mayoría tiene educación superior, pero no vienen de los círculos de la élite santiaguina.

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admin
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Tue May 25, 2021 8:07 am

so a bunch of the newly elected wankers are already talking about extending the time to write the new constitution, which currently 9 months, with a 3 month extension if needed,

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... ucion.html

meanwhile, they get paid as much per month as the useless congress.
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fraggle092
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by fraggle092 » Tue May 25, 2021 10:43 am

My prediction, fwiw is that this process will degenerate into the same type of spectacle we already see in Congress.
Even before they have started, this deliberative body has shown signs of wanting to get involved in the running of the government, which is well outside their remit.

When time runs out without the appearance of a coherent constitution, the Commies will produce their version, backed up by intimidation, media collusion and the use of the primera linea to create civil mayhem in the same way that worked so well for them the first time around. And by that stage it may be imposed without a vote.

No doubt this show will run and run but afaic its just another sideshow in the ongoing Chilezuela circus, nothing will come out of it except a lot of hot air.

Done.
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admin
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:51 pm

fairly good look at the breakdown of the new constitution breakdown.

https://americasquarterly.org/article/c ... -politics/

a little light on details, and some of the more subtle political divisions.
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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:19 am

admin wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 8:07 am
so a bunch of the newly elected wankers are already talking about extending the time to write the new constitution, which currently 9 months, with a 3 month extension if needed,

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... ucion.html

meanwhile, they get paid as much per month as the useless congress.
Even then 12 months will be too short.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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admin
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:50 am

so, the extreme left of the elected writers are already gone full communist morons, and 34 of them are making all sorts of demands about changing the make-up of the constitutional congress, new laws, demiliterization of the 9th region, ending "political prisons", changing the 2/3rds quarem, etc, etc, bla, bla, bla or they will not participate.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... rania.html

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... -ley.shtml

I got news for those idiots. fine. stay home.

That leaves the center right to the far right, as the majority. At best, that would just mean the whole project fails, and the current constitution is reaffirmed.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:53 am

It is just way too stupid.

It is like a bank robber holding a gun to their head while telling the bank teller, "give me all your money, or I will blow my brains out".
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tiagoabner
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:02 pm

admin wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:50 am
so, the extreme left of the elected writers are already gone full communist morons, and 34 of them are making all sorts of demands about changing the make-up of the constitutional congress, new laws, demilitarization of the 9th region, ending "political prisons", changing the 2/3rds quarem, etc, etc, bla, bla, bla or they will not participate.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... rania.html

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... -ley.shtml

I got news for those idiots. fine. stay home.

That leaves the center-right to the far right, as the majority. At best, that would just mean the whole project fails, and the current constitution is reaffirmed.
They've been saying that kind of stuff literally since the day after the election. The main issue with the far left in Chile is they can't keep their fucking mouths shut.
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41southchile
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm

I have a question, where is the legitimacy in this process ? Yes people think they are having a say, but not many want to actually excercise that right it seems. If we are talking of percentages of the population that supported the Pinochet Constitution vs the what's going on now, the percentages are not that different.

Any argument that the Pinochet constitution wasn't legitimate frankly doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes he was a dictator but probably more than 30 or 40 percent of the population still approved of what he was doing, so while not directly "democratically" able to be shown, it was still, in overall percentage terms, more than the support numbers we are seeing for the people that are writing this constitution and probably even beats the numbers that choose for it to be changed. (50 percent voted and 80 percent of that approved, so about 40 percent of population)

Or are my calculations wrong ?

Where indeed is the legitimacy ? There is and never has been a majority of the population that have formally supported this, less than 40 percent could be bothered to choose people to draft it.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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tiagoabner
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:36 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:23 pm
I have a question, where is the legitimacy in this process ? Yes people think they are having a say, but not many want to actually excercise that right it seems. If we are talking of percentages of the population that supported the Pinochet Constitution vs the what's going on now, the percentages are not that different.

Any argument that the Pinochet constitution wasn't legitimate frankly doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes he was a dictator but probably more than 30 or 40 percent of the population still approved of what he was doing, so while not directly "democratically" able to be shown, it was still, in overall percentage terms, more than the support numbers we are seeing for the people that are writing this constitution and probably even beats the numbers that choose for it to be changed. (50 percent voted and 80 percent of that approved, so about 40 percent of population)

Or are my calculations wrong ?

Where indeed is the legitimacy ? There is and never has been a majority of the population that have formally supported this, less than 40 percent could be bothered to choose people to draft it.
50.98% of registered voters showed up to vote on the Apruebo/Rechazo plebiscite, which seems to be a record turnout number here in Chile. 78.31% of voters voted for a new constitution. I guess getting 78% of votes on a record-setting election in terms of turnout is as legitimate as it gets.
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