The New Constitution

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The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sat May 22, 2021 9:41 am

Writing a new constitution, deserves a new thread.

As we have had lots of discussion about the constitution and the process leading up to the rewrite, now that the 155 delegates are elected, this is probably going to be a long process that deserves a thread separate from all the debate over, is it good idea, the process of electing delgates to the assembly, etc.

Here is fairly good article on what is at stake for latin america, although a bit naive on how latin America and Chile works, they still get the major points,

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/05/2 ... -pub-84581
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fraggle092
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by fraggle092 » Sat May 22, 2021 12:00 pm

This is actually in reply to the article published in Le monde diplomatique in a locked thread. I found it tendentious and superficial Although the author correctly states the outcome of the recent voting, his implicit assumption of the moral high ground glosses over what every Chilean knows; that every initiative has ulterior and interested motivations.

The chain of public and private scandals over at least the last 10 years led the nation down this road, it's as if Chile has forgotten that "honesty" in all its senses is the best policy, for pragmatic, not moral, reasons. But whatever happens, the old-guard politicians are already frantically scrambling to fit themselves into whatever new Utopia (or Dystopia) arises. En Chile no pasa nada.
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Primarias.jpg
(Great cartoon by Jimmy Scott in the Mercurio - getting the complete message implies identifying the protagonists)

A review of M. Gaudichard's publications clearly show his political orientation. Of course, he doesn't actually live here; so what you are reading is a second or third hand interpretation of a single event written by a progressive French professor in a third language.

A more detailed Chilean analysis by Tomas Mosciatti (who has even-handedly castigated all sides in the Chilean kleptocracy over the years) can be found here
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Una victoria superior.png
I voted Rechazo!

frozen-north
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by frozen-north » Sat May 22, 2021 12:09 pm

From the previous topic:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=17759&start=36#p209783
admin wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 7:52 pm

Here is a fairly good coverage of what is going on, in the event someone does not know:
https://www.cfr.org/blog/chiles-constit ... -inclusion
Regardless of the challenges to meeting demands for an overhaul of Chile’s neoliberal economic system, the country’s new constitution could facilitate the lasting inclusion of marginalized groups in political processes.

mem
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by mem » Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm

I am a big fan of the super majority 2/3 requirement to admit amendments.

I also think there are a lot of conservatives buried in the independents. This constitution should really reflect the majority as best as can be expected. Are there really more leftists or are they merely the loudest of the fringe? When there isnt peer pressure where will more of chileans lean, left or right? We know what each side would have us believe but I think reality may be very surprising

The rejection of the right and left parties is clear and a good thing. When it comes to hashing out the new constitution I think the indies will very clearly support where they are ideologically regardless of their party affiliation and the super majority requirement will be an excellent sanity check

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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sat May 22, 2021 7:34 pm

mem wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm
I am a big fan of the super majority 2/3 requirement to admit amendments.

I also think there are a lot of conservatives buried in the independents. This constitution should really reflect the majority as best as can be expected. Are there really more leftists or are they merely the loudest of the fringe? When there isnt peer pressure where will more of chileans lean, left or right? We know what each side would have us believe but I think reality may be very surprising

The rejection of the right and left parties is clear and a good thing. When it comes to hashing out the new constitution I think the indies will very clearly support where they are ideologically regardless of their party affiliation and the super majority requirement will be an excellent sanity check
Yea, had either side of the traditional parties got a clear majority (or veto), we would be listening to the other side bitch about the legitimacy of the constitution for the next 100 years.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sat May 22, 2021 7:38 pm

it is also a the source of a lot of the hysteria in the foreign media, mostly American, about 'oh my god the lefties won, we are all going to die'. They just don't know how to digest the idea that there can be more than two sides of anything political. They keep trying to super imposed American bullshit on Chile.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sun May 23, 2021 2:04 pm

I think lavin got closest to the mark, in the election post-mortem, when he says the Piñata administration completely screwed up by ignoring the middle class, providing no bono, no help for small business, etc, etc through the pandemic. They have simply been left to muddle through on their own, while their finances and numbers have been decimated by the pandemic measures.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... media.html

Now the left, being the one trick pony they are, also screwed-up. They only know how to play the "poverty card", targeting the poor and lower economic classes, meaning they also are badly neglecting the middle class and are not offering much.

when Piñata screwed-up the "middle class bonus" program, the little commies in congress had nothing else to fill the gap, other than giving people their own money out of AFP.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sun May 23, 2021 2:08 pm

and that pretty much explains why the protest vote for so many independents.

The political parties all need hearing aids; but, after this last week of bullshit surrounding the presidential primaries, it is pretty obvious none got the message.

Chileans are tired of the completely clueless political class that has no grasp nor interest in understanding their problems.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sun May 23, 2021 2:11 pm

one thing to point out, the large amount of people elected that do not come from the rich santiago neighborhoods or the political traditional families in Santiago.

also there is a fairly big number that are from outside Santiago. That is something generally not reflect in the make-up of congress.
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by Jamers41 » Sun May 23, 2021 2:28 pm

mem wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm
I am a big fan of the super majority 2/3 requirement to admit amendments.

I also think there are a lot of conservatives buried in the independents. This constitution should really reflect the majority as best as can be expected. Are there really more leftists or are they merely the loudest of the fringe? When there isnt peer pressure where will more of chileans lean, left or right? We know what each side would have us believe but I think reality may be very surprising

The rejection of the right and left parties is clear and a good thing. When it comes to hashing out the new constitution I think the indies will very clearly support where they are ideologically regardless of their party affiliation and the super majority requirement will be an excellent sanity check
A lot of conservatives buried in the independents? Did you look at their official "proposals" or statements provided to Servel before the election? Have you read or seen any of the elected members' statements post election? I did, and would definitely disagree with the idea of "a lot". A few probably, I remember reading one younger girl responding to a question by saying that she would consult with advisors (good for her), but there are definitely some real crackpots in there too. I read one lady advocating for "taking over" the Banco Central "for the workers" because it's "absurd how they define monetary policy only in favor of the business class" or something along those lines.

Is there at least 1/3 of the votes available to block any really wacko or controversial proposals? Probably.....if you assume that there are a few independents plus a few of the old "center left" votes that would vote with the right. But a majority of those independents definitely have leftist ink to spill on this new Constitution.......that said, I believe that a constitution doesn't have a lot of teeth if you don't fund it, so I'm not sure how much would change anyway.

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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sun May 23, 2021 3:59 pm

Jamers41 wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 2:28 pm
mem wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm
I am a big fan of the super majority 2/3 requirement to admit amendments.

I also think there are a lot of conservatives buried in the independents. This constitution should really reflect the majority as best as can be expected. Are there really more leftists or are they merely the loudest of the fringe? When there isnt peer pressure where will more of chileans lean, left or right? We know what each side would have us believe but I think reality may be very surprising

The rejection of the right and left parties is clear and a good thing. When it comes to hashing out the new constitution I think the indies will very clearly support where they are ideologically regardless of their party affiliation and the super majority requirement will be an excellent sanity check
A lot of conservatives buried in the independents? Did you look at their official "proposals" or statements provided to Servel before the election? Have you read or seen any of the elected members' statements post election? I did, and would definitely disagree with the idea of "a lot". A few probably, I remember reading one younger girl responding to a question by saying that she would consult with advisors (good for her), but there are definitely some real crackpots in there too. I read one lady advocating for "taking over" the Banco Central "for the workers" because it's "absurd how they define monetary policy only in favor of the business class" or something along those lines.

Is there at least 1/3 of the votes available to block any really wacko or controversial proposals? Probably.....if you assume that there are a few independents plus a few of the old "center left" votes that would vote with the right. But a majority of those independents definitely have leftist ink to spill on this new Constitution.......that said, I believe that a constitution doesn't have a lot of teeth if you don't fund it, so I'm not sure how much would change anyway.
I think you are missing the point.

If you are a communist party member in Chile: YOU ARE RICH!!!

really really rich. Like you are the 1%.

In los condes, you will have a communist party member living in the same building as a UDI politician, and niether of them have a fucking clue about really what is going on with little people, and they don't give a dam. Even if they once did, now they don't give a shit.

all the spectrum in between is the same. fucking "socialist party" member simply translates to " I have not figured out how rip-off the country yet to retire".
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Re: The New Constitution

Post by admin » Sun May 23, 2021 5:07 pm

hear is food for thought,

last time congress gave itself a raise, it took three days.

they have been talking about cutting their pay for years, and not even the fucking communist have seriously gotten on board with it.
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