Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by admin » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:33 pm

Here is one of the better explanations of "socialism" from the Terminator himself:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n_hPISebgs4

The donkey is a little strange, but ...

Providing opertunities to all, is not "socialism". It is being fair.

No one ever tells the trust fund baby on their yaht, "hey, get a job you bumb"!
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fraggle092
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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:16 am

Libertarians come here unaware of how things work, and as long as they avoid coming to the attention of the authorities in any way, they are mostly left alone, I guess that many forumites are in that happy position. But all the restrictions that "freedom lovers" hate are in place here, they are just not enforced very efficiently. However, once you are inside the system and being governed, any jack-in-office can ride roughshod over your "rights" with little redress. So not so different from anywhere else I suppose. Just as Napoleon supposedly described the English as a race of shopkeepers, I would call Chile a nation of Inspectors.
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41southchile
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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by 41southchile » Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:16 pm

Like Chile , most libertarians are full of contradictions, just like life I guess.🤔
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by Huelshoff » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:46 pm

I have always thought of Chilean libertarianism as largely a creation of wishful-thinking North American libertarians who really didn't know much about Chile, other than the Chicago Boys and maybe Jaime Guzman. IMHO, libertarianism in Chile was laid down after the coup on a rather communitarian political culture, although it has some echoes in the more traditional agriculture vs. new industry debates in Chile and Latin America in the 19th century. I recall the old story, pre-coup, of the Chilean conservative and communist who debate vociferously all day and then settle down together at night to enjoy a good bottle of Chilean wine. Even Pinochet was backing away from the advice of the Chicago Boys, at least on macro-economic policy, after the near collapse in the early 1980s. From what I read at the time, our friend in jail today was whining about faltering Chilean libertarianism at the time of his arrest. One interpretation of the recent social conflict and the efforts to re-write the constitution is a continuation of the conflict between the two social tendencies and political programs.

So I think Chile has never been as libertarian as many in the North would like to believe. I remember when George Bush Jr, flush with the "political capital" that he thought he had won in the 2004 election, proposed to privatize the US social security system on the Chilean model (even though it was already showing structural problems at that early date). Fortunately (in a perverse way), the Falluja Uprising and Congressional opposition put an end to his political capital and the plans to build a Chilean public retirement system in the US.

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:00 pm

There have never been any Chilean "Libertarians", the concept is completely alien. The following was quoted by Tomas Bradanovic as an unflattering example of the local mentality:
Chile es un fundo de Talca

"siempre he visto a Chile como un fundo de Talca, con el patrón abusador y prepotente, ese típico huaso en camioneta, inculto y lleno de privilegios. Por otra parte tiene a su empleado ladrón, resentido, hipócrita que evita todo trabajo, roba y sabotea al patrón a cada rato, aunque eso vaya contra sus propios intereses. El patrón se acuesta con la hija del inquilino, el empleado se acuesta con la mujer del patrón, ambos conviven en medio de un odio sordo, cada uno convencido que es más vivo y se está cagando al otro".
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by Huelshoff » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:10 pm

Nicely stated.

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by Space Cat » Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:25 pm

Not only to Chileans, the American Hobbesian concept of "negative liberty" is completely alien to most people in the world. There are also no organic libertarian movements in other countries – it's all recent copy-paste from the US, fueled by translated propaganda created by the University of Chicago and American libertarian think tanks.

Chile is quite Western European when it comes to politics – after all, the Chilean state was designed following the French Republic's blueprints. It has more actual leftists (not US right-wing social liberals that are called "the left" there) than post-Soviet Eastern Europe, where unions and strikes are barely heard of, while socialist/communist parties get 15-20% votes in total and are mostly supported by USSR-nostalgic grandmas.

While the US has been quite successful in destroying its organized labor and popular movements since the 30s, in Chile even Pinochet couldn't break their backs. In the 80s, they played a significant role in getting the country out of the dictatorship (read about the protests back then, they were brutally repressed but continued nevertheless). While the US propaganda was able to paint all social programs as "communist" and make the libertarian memes like the "liberty of choice" a thing, in Chile the concepts like "dignidad" aren't going anywhere soon.

But libertarians can't see the forest for the trees because they are high on their own ideology – obsessed with free markets, monetary theory, smol goberment, and overall Great Man narrative. So they keep having rude awakenings when it turns out that some economic growth from selling natural resources did not turn most Chileans into Milton Friedman fans. On the contrary – people started questioning where is there share.

This is a "positive liberty" country. Always has been.

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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by admin » Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:14 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:25 pm
Not only to Chileans, the American Hobbesian concept of "negative liberty" is completely alien to most people in the world. There are also no organic libertarian movements in other countries – it's all recent copy-paste from the US, fueled by translated propaganda created by the University of Chicago and American libertarian think tanks.

Chile is quite Western European when it comes to politics – after all, the Chilean state was designed following the French Republic's blueprints. It has more actual leftists (not US right-wing social liberals that are called "the left" there) than post-Soviet Eastern Europe, where unions and strikes are barely heard of, while socialist/communist parties get 15-20% votes in total and are mostly supported by USSR-nostalgic grandmas.

While the US has been quite successful in destroying its organized labor and popular movements since the 30s, in Chile even Pinochet couldn't break their backs. In the 80s, they played a significant role in getting the country out of the dictatorship (read about the protests back then, they were brutally repressed but continued nevertheless). While the US propaganda was able to paint all social programs as "communist" and make the libertarian memes like the "liberty of choice" a thing, in Chile the concepts like "dignidad" aren't going anywhere soon.

But libertarians can't see the forest for the trees because they are high on their own ideology – obsessed with free markets, monetary theory, smol goberment, and overall Great Man narrative. So they keep having rude awakenings when it turns out that some economic growth from selling natural resources did not turn most Chileans into Milton Friedman fans. On the contrary – people started questioning where is there share.

This is a "positive liberty" country. Always has been.
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Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

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41southchile
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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by 41southchile » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:16 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:00 pm
There have never been any Chilean "Libertarians", the concept is completely alien. The following was quoted by Tomas Bradanovic as an unflattering example of the local mentality:
Chile es un fundo de Talca

"siempre he visto a Chile como un fundo de Talca, con el patrón abusador y prepotente, ese típico huaso en camioneta, inculto y lleno de privilegios. Por otra parte tiene a su empleado ladrón, resentido, hipócrita que evita todo trabajo, roba y sabotea al patrón a cada rato, aunque eso vaya contra sus propios intereses. El patrón se acuesta con la hija del inquilino, el empleado se acuesta con la mujer del patrón, ambos conviven en medio de un odio sordo, cada uno convencido que es más vivo y se está cagando al otro".
That is brilliant 👏
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: Libertarians Thoughts on Chile Now?

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:13 pm

41southchile wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:16 am
[That is brilliant 👏
Yeah, it stuck in my mind when I first read it several years ago. So that's me quoting a Chilean quoting another Chilean...
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

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