Electric Vehicles News

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Britkid
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by Britkid » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:55 pm

Hi admin,
Quite a few points there.
Not try to convince you to buy an electric car, obviously it's not for you for now, but these points may be of benefit for others.

Firstly, you don't have to drop SU$50-$100k to get in this game. Second hand electric cars are on sale for 15 million pesos in Chile now (albeit probably mostly only in the RM). Mine actually cost 12 million because it is a 2017, high mileage (69,000km), ex rental car with some minor scratches. That's 5 million more than a 2017 Accent, which is the petrol version of the same Hyundai car. But with the price I'll sell it for and petrol savings, I expect to make that 5 million back. In the long run I won't likely lose any money at all.

Maintenance - electric cars don't need as much maintenance or repairs as petrol and diesel cars. They have now been around for 10 cars after all in big enough numbers and there are plenty of studies and data, so this is now a settled question.

You make an interesting point about whether electric cars are city cars or not. Personally, I think my Ioniq is now good for anywhere between La Serena and Pucon, but, you need to be open minded and perhaps slightly adventurous.

I can do 245km in my Ioniq on average; for highway driving at 100km/hr it can do 215km, I haven't tried it at 120km/h but it would be lower, perhaps 200km (drive aggressively or constantly have the aircon on full blast and it's worse).
The charging stations are usually spaced every 100km or less. So I can drive to Pucon and my only problem is if I get two consecutive charging stations out of order. I don't have to rely on any single one. But I would have to stop for about 20-30 minutes after every hour's driving.
Just Santiago to Concepción needs 3-4 stops so you don't rely on any one charger. However, if they increase the number of charging points (2-3 per gas station instead of one, every 50km instead of 80-100km, and improve the reliability) then that comes down to two stops since you can then drive it down to 20% before stopping instead of having to stop at 40%-50% of charge.)
But if long distance trips are occasional like most people's are, and IF you can charge at home, you get that lost time back because you never have to go to the petrol station in your local area. Get home and plug in. All those 10 minutes saved of not going to a petrol station adds up.

Santiago to La Serena is a bit different at the moment because you have that big gap of 150km between the charger at Los Vilos and the one at Copec station at Termas de Socos. If I drive the Ioniq to La Serena I'll be relying on that single charging point at Socos. if I got there in the evening and the charging station wasn't functioning, I'd likely have to stay in a hotel overnight and slow charge there or somewhere else, and continue on to La Serena the next day probably. Or if I got there in the morning and the rapid charger was out of order I might be sitting around for 5 hours or so waiting for the car to slow charge enough to get me comfortably to La Serena. It would be better if they put a charging point in that no man's land bit about 50-100km north of Los Vilos. But at the moment there isn't. The other thing is, at the moment, you would also have to cross over to the Copec on the other side of the road on the way back to Santiago, probably adding another 10 minutes delay. Because there is no charging station on the west side of the road in that section of Ruta 5.

I can also get to the beach and back without having to charge, and I can get to Vina del Mar without having to charge (although need to charge there before coming back).

I will let you all know if I ever try out any of those trips how it goes. So far I haven't taken the car outside the RM.

So I think my Ioniq is good for La Serena to Pucon personally, which is as far as I would ever go anyway.

The Nissan Leaf that's a different story, because the car doesn't have an active cooling system and the battery overheats if you rapid charge it twice on the same day. What that means is that on that second charge of the day it slows down the charging rate to prevent battery degradation so you can be stuck for more than an hour even at a rapid charging point. Someone in a Chilean government agency last week published the results of driving 5000km around the country in a Leaf. They took 10-11 hours between Santiago and Concepción. That is possible in 6 hours in a petrol car if you only stop for a rest once, while my Ioniq could do it 7-9 hours. So the Leaf (40KWH battery version) is a better choice if you don't plan to go more than 200km from your home/office rarely if ever. Not a road trip car.

Then you have electric cars that only have a range of 100km. They really are just city cars.

Last week's report also showed that in the 20 times they went to charge at a public charging station, mostly on the motorways, there were 2 times that it was out or order. That is a bit disappointing, but looks consistent with some older reports I saw. I myself have only tried public charging stations twice, and both times they worked.

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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by admin » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:52 pm

here is the thing.

I still think the bang for the public peso is in getting big rigs, mining industry, and other commercial fleet vehicles on electric. Where they go, the private cars can then follow.

probably 99.0% of all big rig movement is either on ruta 5, or within 100 km of Ruta 5 (or in major urban area).

They are also fleet vehicles, standard maintenance and parts, with a set of trained personnel to service them. easier to standardized, especially if you can get rigs with hot swap batteries.

same with mining industry. They can standardize everything from mega dump trucks to the small pickups and busses they use. they often do short, repeated, routes.

put massive tax breaks on those, and don't mess with the tax breaks for them for 10 or 20 years.

Then we can worry about everyone with their individual cars, and all the quirks that go in to deploying them.

FYI, there is a public charging station in downtown Puerto varas on the central park. Somewhere I have a photo of my gas guzzling 4x4 parked in front of the charging station.

My wife said, "you can't park here". I said, "if I see an electric car, I will immediately move. I think I am safe for about 5 to 10 years". :lol:
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Britkid
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by Britkid » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:28 pm

short haul trucking yes, city buses/ taxis. ..any vehicle doing 20,000km+ per year but usually under 200km/day is better electric just to save money, even if they aren´t eco.

long haul is harder, it´s all right for me to take 8 hours in an EV instead of 6 hours in a petrol car to drive to La Serena once a year. but for a truck driving that route once a week? that´s a lot of wasted time. even if you could do it 8 hours which you can´t..because...

my car batteries are 28kWH, the fast chargers are 50KW. I´m on my way in half an hour. But a 6-40 tonne truck uses 200kWH-400kWH batteries. That´s maybe 5 hour charge. 15-20 hours from Santiago to La Serena (5 hours drive and 10-15 hours stopped), unless you have a whole different infrastructure of 200kW chargers which are more expensive.

cars are a lot easier for the simple fact that, compared to trucks, they spend much more time close to home base. most car journeys are 2 miles, 5 miles, 30 miles. not for truckers.

long haul trucking is one of the niches that, because it´s hard to fully electrify, offers an opportunity for hydrogen, with its higher energy density. hybrids also have a play here.

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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by admin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:27 am

that is why they need to get the hot swap battery technology standardized. Pull in to copec, 5 or 10 mins the battery is swapped out and you are on your way. should take as long as filling up with gas.

and there is the first generation technology problem. They are still screwing with the battery technology and designs.

The gas car went through the same process. The plane went through the same process.
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by 41southchile » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:44 am

Forget about batteries for big rigs and the like.
Hydrogen makes much more sense in Chile, from renewable energy.
And what happens when you make hydrogen by Electrolysis?
You get oxygen.
What does the Salmon industry in the South of Chile use?
Shit loads of Oxygen, to transport smolt for example.
Heres an article from a couple of weeks ago. Apparently they are headed in that direction.
http://blog.investchile.gob.cl/chile-ai ... en-by-2050
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Britkid
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by Britkid » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:24 pm

admin wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:27 am
that is why they need to get the hot swap battery technology standardized. Pull in to copec, 5 or 10 mins the battery is swapped out and you are on your way. should take as long as filling up with gas.
There was a company in Israel that did this for cars with Renault, but they collapsed. No-one is doing that in the west, but there is a company in China doing it for cars: https://insideevs.com/news/392660/nio-b ... customers/

Perhaps you're right. It seems to make sense for trucks.

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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by Britkid » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:37 pm

Fuel cell vehicles powered by hydrogen created by electrolysis using electricity from renewable energy is sort of a holy grail since in theory it's even better for the environment than a battery electric vehicle owing to reduced minerals and reduced energy used in production of the vehicle. But it's a less efficient process because you are converting electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity when you could just use electricity. And in reality most hydrogen is produced by fossil fuels at the moment since the greener hydrogen is 3-4x more expensive. Hydrogen is also behind battery electric vehicles on current infrastructure and vehicle pricing.

Hydrogen can actually complement electricity production to the grid rather than compete with it, because you can set up your hydrogen production to run on sunny/windy days when you have excess renewable electricity. This could work for Chile.

Hydrogen certainly has a play in long haul trucking because of the energy density, it can get better range. It does also have a play in mining as well for similar reasons - some of the vehicles use a lot of energy in their operation even when standing still and so electric ones can run flat.

In the 2020s you will see very little hydrogen vehicles most likely, especially not passenger cars where arguably fuel cell vehicles have already lost but you will get niches of activity in commercial areas. The 2030s may be better for hydrogen. However if Chile wants to get in on it yes they should do it right away rather than trying to jump onto the bandwagon later by which time other countries or companies will have established an insurmountable technological lead.

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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by admin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:26 am

Screenshot_20200826-082431_Brave.jpg
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by admin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:27 am

that was the cartoon in the local paper this morning. :lol:
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by admin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:13 am

It is not that I don't believe in Electric vehicles will sooner rather than later become common, if not dominate. I am sitting on a lot of stock in my retirement portfolio that has some sort of angel on the rise of the electric car / renewable trend. Lithium and copper mostly at the moment, but I am totally willing to follow the trend where it goes. If lithium get's replaced with salt batteries, I am totally fine with going that direction. It is not a religion, at least for me.

I don't own Tesla or other electric car company stocks, because the jury is still out on their particular viability. How many car manufactures were there in say 1910? People were building them in their shed. The industry is obvious. It sounds cool. Like everyone says, 'I wish had bought some Ford stock when the model A came out', but no one could see Ford would still be around today.

My issue is first generation technology. I never buy first generation technology in anything. My Toyota, second generation (of 50 generations). My Hyundai, second generation. My laptop, third generation. My phone, 9th generation.

Especially in Chile. It has the potential to be like the pellet heating systems (makes a good metaphor), or name a million things that enter the market and then disappear because the market is so small and the supply chains so thin. There is a shortage of pellets, while pellet producers are going bankrupt.

I am willing to buy an eletric vehical when the supply chains are there. There is some nice off road electric jeeps and trucks in the hopper. I even found a company that sells a retrofit kit for just about any standard gas vehicle ever produced. Think it was like 12,000 U.S., not a bad price point. I would love to restore a old gas guzzling polluting classic, and stick a electric motor in it for fun. Just not yet.

I changed the oil in my jeep the other day, and was thinking to myself how messy and toxic the whole process is. You would think they would have come up with a better system by now. Totally not going to miss that.
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Britkid
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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by Britkid » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:22 am

I decided to buy Tesla stock about a year ago when it fell to 200. That looked low to me if you compared the future growth potential to its revenue and profits and market capitalization. I called my agency, which is Fidelity, which is UK based, and they said they would add US companies in a few months, so I figured I would just wait rather than set up an entire other broker. The a few months later it went to 400 and I decided I had missed my chance. It's at 2000 at the moment. 10x increase in 1 year. I am still annoyed about that.

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Re: Electric Vehicles News

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:59 am

Even though we might still not be there in terms of price or in terms of how developed the technology is, roughly 90% of Chile's population lives in urban areas. Source: http://www.ipsuss.cl/ipsuss/estadistica ... 20550.html

Given a good enough charging infrastructure and good enough financial/tax benefits, it should be feasible for a significant part of the population to shift to electric cards.
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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